| PETA is absolutely useless | My letter to them |

[Roboramma]

I think all the "would you eat your dog?" "Did you love your childhood pets?" etc. was a hamfisted way to establish the idea that animals, like humans, have moral value, and you already think so (rather than trying to argue the point from first principles, just try to show that the person already does treat animals that he/she interacts with in that way). The implication being that you should extend that moral consideration to other animals that you don't interact with on a personal basis. So, if it seems horrible to eat your own dog, the difference between that and eating a pig isn't that there is a moral difference of kind between your dog and a pig, it's just that you never interacted with the pig.

I've had to connect a bunch of dots that they don't seem to have connected, and honestly it's possible that that's not even where they were going. It just seems like the most reasonable extrapolation of their point to me.

PS I had bacon on my pizza last night. While I can see and even agree with some of the logic of vegetarianism, I'm certainly not here to promote it, and personally haven't come to any firm conclusions one way or the other. I think these issues are difficult.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

This word is spelled they're.

Yes. It's a decent letter but I do recommend you get help from a editor. Letters with grammatical errors are less likely to even be read.

 

[varwoche]

The OP's examples of the Vegan questions shows another proof that Veggers are not bit about health they are about political points like Animal Rights or Saving the Planet.

If anybody want to take the time, you can track down the Pets director's salaries. Just like Randi making money off JREF- 95%? Look for <501c3 tax reports>

First off @ShortHaxYT ... Well done! I believe you are who you say you are, etc.

Edited by kmortis: 

Removed to comply with Rule 12

 

[Silly Green Monkey]

I've had the "eat your cat!" line thrown at me. First off, she's little. Second, she's not a meat animal, nor is she a vegetable eater like the meat animals we have mostly are. She's a companion animal, bred to wrap me around her tail stub and have me cater to her every whim. To sleep next to my pillow with her butt towards me so I can enjoy her effluviations. PETA won't be happy until no animal lives near humans, but they're doomed to failure as so many animals have decided humans are handy to live near, and some like us enough to live very near us.

 

[Loss Leader]

PETA won't be happy until no animal lives near humans, but they're doomed to failure

It's an unworkable philosophy. I hope they find the courage and leadership to refocus.

 

[shemp]

We all are. Also I've noticed that you are now pretty consistently not putting a period on the end of sentences. IMO, you are an extraordinary writer for your age. Your letter to PETA shows outstanding grammer, spelling, punctuation, sentence structure and vocabulary.



Statements inside parentheses are to be placed within a sentence rather than being a sentence. You've never seen anything like what you just wrote in your books.

I almost forgot. Welcome to the ISF!

"grammar"

And stop acting like a pedant.

 

[Elagabalus]

Note before you read : This is my first post and I am only 14 years old so please forgive my brevity. Also, you can criticize me. I don’t have left-wing journalists to defend me like Greta Thunberg

My name is Aadil and Im 14 years old. Not old enough to pay taxes but old enough to say…

Your organization is hypocritical.

One of your main missions is to help animals, correct? PETA stands for “People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals”.

At the same time you’re saying this, you are also euthanizing, also known as killing, 80 percent of the animals you take in.[1]

This is so much that you can’t lawfully call yourself an animal shelter. You’re a euthanization clinic. Tell me, knowing this, if I or anyone else would really support an organization who kills thousands of animals a year.

You also try to spread misinformation. In this article here, 45 Signs You're a Vegan and Just Don't Know It Yet | PETA [2] , the writer tries to convince you you’re a vegan by answering a couple questions. Such as:

Would you sometimes hang out with animals rather than people?
How does this make someone a vegan? Because you like animals? I’d sincerely like to know.

Are you a feminist?
How is this in any way relevant to veganism? They’re two completely different topics.

Would you refuse to eat your dog?
Show me one person who wouldn’t refuse to eat their dog.

Do you support oppressed communities and recognize that supremacist viewpoints are whack?
Seriously?

Would you help a dog left in a hot car?
Just because I would help an animal that’s slowly suffering and dying doesn’t mean I won’t eat meat from a farm. And yes, my family gets meat from local farms.

Did your childhood BFF’s include your stuffed animals?
What?

Then at the end, you say this:
Not answering yes to half, or 1/3, answering yes to any of them.

Also you make pamphlets that are promoted to children [3]

Some of you might be thinking this is fake and made by someone else, but it’s not.

PETA's Comic for Kids Takes Aim at Dads Who Fish | PETA [4]

From PETA’s official website, talking about how your Daddy kills animals.

you also promote violence against people, as well as killing animals.

Here’s a direct quote from PETA’s campaign manager.

"If we really believe that animals have the same right to be free from pain and suffering at our hands, then, of course, we're going to be blowing things up and smashing windows. For the record, I don't do this stuff, but I advocate it. I think it's a great way to bring about animal liberation, considering the level of suffering, the atrocities."

"I think it would be great if all of the fast-food outlets, slaughterhouses, these laboratories and the banks who fund them exploded tomorrow. I think it's perfectly appropriate for people to take bricks and toss them through windows. Hallelujah to the people who are willing to do it."
-- Bruce Friedrich, PETA Campaign Director, Vegan Campaign Coordinator, Animal Rights 2001 Conference, July 2, 2001

I’m sure that there are some people out there that support PETA, but you are highly misinformed.

Be honest with me, do you support them?


P.S. https://www(dot)petakillsanimals.com/
P.S.S. Lots and lots of fake stuff you do → https://www.petakillsanimals(dot)com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/peta_inspection(dot)pdf

Footnotes
[1] https://www.washingtonpost(dot)com/...e4-bea5-b893e7ac3fb3_story.html?noredirect=on
[2]

Dear PETA,

You so totally suck!

Sincerely,

(your name) Canadian, 14 ******* years old, bitches!

 

[William Parcher]

"grammar"

And stop acting like a pedant.

We have a problem when shemp is the only one to spot a mispelling.

 

[Cheetah]

'misspelling'


Uh.....Hi ShortHaxYT!

 

[William Parcher]

Now you are knitpicking me.

 

[caveman1917]

Would you refuse to eat your dog?
Show me one person who wouldn’t refuse to eat their dog.

Depends on how hungry you are. Eating pets is a common occurrence during famines.

In general though, such as with regards to PETA, stay away from NGO's. If there's something you care about and want to do something about, then do it yourself or with friends or something. NGO's tend to operate according to their own logic as an embedded part of the system that produces whatever it is you're trying to change, and more often than not actually help perpetuate the problems.

 

[Mycroft]

I'm still wondering where left wing/right wing came into the discussion at all.

Because of our collective Pavlovian training that any political opinion expressed in any context must be matched to it's ideological origins so that we know to be either ecstatically supportive or horrifically appalled.

No exceptions. Ever.

 

[Cain]

Your organization is hypocritical.

Any organization or individual who takes morality seriously will be hypocritical in some respects. For hypocrisy we should think in terms of thresholds -- that is, whether someone is understandably hypocritical versus, say, obnoxiously hypocritical. Interestingly, with PeTA and other animal rights advocates, to the extent they are not hypocritical, they're accused of being crazy extremists.

With that said, your arguments here are rather weak, and the congratulatory remarks from self-described "skeptics" should be taken with a grain of salt. It's perfectly understandable to be repeating these arguments at 14; other members of this board should know better by now.

Re: Killing Animals

You might want to consult a good dictionary for the etymology of the word "euthanize." It's not necessarily hypocritical to kill animals humanely. A no-kill shelter can be a miserable place with lots of unnecessary suffering.

As for PeTA, it's primarily an advocacy group, not a "euthanization clinic." As far as I recall, they claim to take the most abused animals, the kind that are extremely unlikely to find welcoming homes.

Re: Misinformation

Unfortunately, "vegan" is a term associated more with diet rather than morality. Is it OK for a vegan to animals? Yes. The president of PeTA, who, incidentally, earns a salary less than $35,000/year (if an above poster is curious), has willed her deceased corpse to be prepared as a meal for friends and family. Road kill is vegan. Dumpster diving is vegan.

PeTA produces provocative advertising and stupid arguments to bring people over to their side. Apparently the thinking is anything that rouses people is good on balance.

What you've included is not especially bad. Those questions are a starting point to get people thinking. If you would never eat your dog, then what makes your dog so special? Because it's yours? If you think people should not be treated differently because of their gender (or their race or their orientation), then why should species matter?

We have human beings who do not have access to clean water or enough food. Meanwhile, over a third of our pets are overweight. Americans spend millions of dollars a year on cat toys.

Would you help a dog left in a hot car?
Just because I would help an animal that’s slowly suffering and dying doesn’t mean I won’t eat meat from a farm. And yes, my family gets meat from local farms.

And that's your own hypocrisy.

I’m sure that there are some people out there that support PETA, but you are highly misinformed.

Sadly, they're not as misinformed as the people who professionally loathe PeTA.

 

[casebro]

I think all the "would you eat your dog?" "Did you love your childhood pets?" etc. was a hamfisted way to establish the idea that animals, like humans, have moral value, and you already think so (rather than trying to argue the point from first principles, just try to show that the person already does treat animals that he/she interacts with in that way). The implication being that you should extend that moral consideration to other animals that you don't interact with on a personal basis. So, if it seems horrible to eat your own dog, the difference between that and eating a pig isn't that there is a moral difference of kind between your dog and a pig, it's just that you never interacted with the pig.

I've had to connect a bunch of dots that they don't seem to have connected, and honestly it's possible that that's not even where they were going. It just seems like the most reasonable extrapolation of their point to me.

PS I had bacon on my pizza last night. While I can see and even agree with some of the logic of vegetarianism, I'm certainly not here to promote it, and personally haven't come to any firm conclusions one way or the other. I think these issues are difficult.

It's called a "push poll".

 

[luchog]

Any organization or individual who takes morality seriously will be hypocritical in some respects. For hypocrisy we should think in terms of thresholds -- that is, whether someone is understandably hypocritical versus, say, obnoxiously hypocritical. Interestingly, with PeTA and other animal rights advocates, to the extent they are not hypocritical, they're accused of being crazy extremists.

That's because in PETA's case, they're both.

As for PeTA, it's primarily an advocacy group, not a "euthanization clinic." As far as I recall, they claim to take the most abused animals, the kind that are extremely unlikely to find welcoming homes.

Not even close to true. In fact, most of the animals that end up at PETA shelters are exactly the same kinds of animals that end up at other shelters. And they've been prosecuted and fined for illegal dumping of animal carcasses produced by their shelters. Over 80% of animals in PETA shelters are killed within 24 hours of showing up, with no attempt to rehabilitate or re-home. There have been multiple expose's about PETA shelters, showing that the animals are not too injured, sick, or abused to re-home. There have even been reported cases of PETA shelter employees stealing animals out of people's yards and killing them. They've been caught numerous times lying about their activities.

PETA does not attempt to re-home animals, because they want to end the existence of pets. The higher-ups have gone on record saying that it would be better off for all pets to be killed rather than be "enslaved" (sic) to humans. Newkirk has also gone on record saying that it would be better for humans to die than to depend on medical products produced from or tested on animals; while she's an insulin-dependent diabetic who for much of her life used insulin derived from porcine sources. When called on this, she generally responds by attacking the accuser, and insisting that her life is more important than theirs and she has a special dispensation because she's "fighting for animals". Pure elitist fanaticism.

And the overwhelming majority of no-kill shelters have better records of animal treatment than PETA has.

https://www.petakillsanimals.com/proof-peta-kills/

PeTA produces provocative advertising and stupid arguments to bring people over to their side. Apparently the thinking is anything that rouses people is good on balance.

Advertising which is frequently sexist, abelist, and elitist. Not to mention rife with science denialism, junk science, and easily debunked anti-science propaganda which has no relation whatsoever to reality. They've claimed, among other things, that drinking milk causes autism, while claiming a vegan diet could cure autism.

https://www.vocativ.com/culture/science/petas-outrageously-dishonest-ad-campaigns/index.html
https://www.mic.com/articles/90145/peta-is-pushing-a-startling-campaign-filled-with-bad-science

The UK's Advertising Standards Authority has banned multiple PETA ads for misleading or outright false claims; and some ads have been banned for highly sexual and degrading imagery. They've also targeted fat people for ridicule. And one advertisement which got banned in German explicitly equated factory farming to the Holocaust, including pictures of death camp inmates, and calling meat-eaters Nazis.

https://www.businessinsider.com/pet...as-banned-in-montreal-because-it-was-sexist-2

And while not being explicitly anti-vaccination, they've made common cause with anti-vaxxers and other woos. They have no problem demonizing or ridiculing the marginalized in order to make their twisted points.

They're also very fond of spreading any sort of conspiracy theory if they believe it serves their purpose.

Unfortunately, "vegan" is a term associated more with diet rather than morality. Is it OK for a vegan to animals? Yes. The president of PeTA, who, incidentally, earns a salary less than $35,000/year (if an above poster is curious), has willed her deceased corpse to be prepared as a meal for friends and family. Road kill is vegan. Dumpster diving is vegan.

Clearly you have no idea what "vegan" means.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veganism

 

[dudalb]

Kind of like the Voluntary Human Extinction Movement. Built on the idea that all species are of equal value, it advocates that humanity should stop reproducing and allow itself to become extinct for the benefit of the other species on the planet.

My own comment when I encountered one of these on the Internet is "Ok,You set the example and lead the way"...

 

[dudalb]

First off @ShortHaxYT ... Well done! I believe you are who you say you are, etc. Please don't take what follows personally.

@casebro ... Again, you're eagerness to smear vegetarians -- you know, those people you hold in such disdain that they're unwelcome in your house -- is something to behold.

So eager that an anonymous post on an internet forum -- referencing things that we're unable to confirm -- is seen as "proof". And then you infer that these twisted concepts that come from an extremist organization are somehow representative of "veggers"?!

What a truly abysmal presentation.

Well, he balances the holier then thou obnoxious moral superiority I get from a lot of vegetarians, vegans in particular.

 

[Cain]

Not even close to true. In fact, most of the animals that end up at PETA shelters are exactly the same kinds of animals that end up at other shelters. And they've been prosecuted and fined for illegal dumping of animal carcasses produced by their shelters. Over 80% of animals in PETA shelters are killed within 24 hours of showing up, with no attempt to rehabilitate or re-home. There have been multiple expose's about PETA shelters, showing that the animals are not too injured, sick, or abused to re-home. There have even been reported cases of PETA shelter employees stealing animals out of people's yards and killing them. They've been caught numerous times lying about their activities.

Careful, you have some spittle on your chin. One of the things about PeTA is that it inspires this kind of unhinged rage. You're just repeating the same talking points. The "oh, my" shock outrage that animals are put down in 24 hours ignores acute suffering. It would be better if they were killed after 30 days of pain?

"There have even been reported cases of PETA shelter employees stealing animals out of people's yards and killing them." And what happened?

The most surprising fact is that PeTA's a well-funded, nationally known organization but takes in only ~3,000 animals.... because that's not really their mission.

PETA does not attempt to re-home animals, because they want to end the existence of pets.

And yet animals in their care ARE adopted out. How truly strange. The problem with "pets" is not that they're "enslaved." That's silly, and it's probably not even something most people at PeTA believe. The problem with most pets is that they eat animals, so I'm disinclined to adopt one (or to harm an obligate carnivore by imposing a vegan diet). Far from slavery, most pets lead lives of relative comfort, if not outright luxury.

Newkirk has also gone on record saying that it would be better for humans to die than to depend on medical products produced from or tested on animals; while she's an insulin-dependent diabetic who for much of her life used insulin derived from porcine sources. When called on this, she generally responds by attacking the accuser, and insisting that her life is more important than theirs and she has a special dispensation because she's "fighting for animals". Pure elitist fanaticism.

Given your "record" so far, I have my doubts that she's said her life is more important than others. Since this is how she "generally" reacts, I'm sure you'll have no problem documenting these encounters.

Advertising which is frequently sexist, abelist, and elitist.

Yes.

Clearly you have no idea what "vegan" means.

"Vegan" -- scare quotes -- "vegan," yeah, sure. But veganism here derives from morality, so for a lot of moral vegans, perhaps even a majority, the opportunistic meat-eating mentioned earlier is not a problem. Maybe this requires a level of thinking beyond your average "but-this-encyclopedia-says" ISF member. Many vegetarians and vegans proudly share stories about being at a restaurant where staff messed up an order. Rather than sending the food back, they ate it. The High Vegan Council still regards them as members in good standing.

 

[luchog]

Careful, you have some spittle on your chin.

That's one of the most pathetic attempts at well-poisoning I've seen here in a long time. I've read your work, I know you're capable of more effort than that.

"There have even been reported cases of PETA shelter employees stealing animals out of people's yards and killing them." And what happened?

Looks like that sentence was pretty self-explanatory to me.

And yet animals in their care ARE adopted out. How truly strange. The problem with "pets" is not that they're "enslaved." That's silly, and it's probably not even something most people at PeTA believe.

You clearly haven't done your research.

Given your "record" so far, I have my doubts that she's said her life is more important than others. Since this is how she "generally" reacts, I'm sure you'll have no problem documenting these encounters.

I did. Your refusal to read the documentation provided speaks volumes.

"Vegan" -- scare quotes -- "vegan," yeah, sure. But veganism here derives from morality, so for a lot of moral vegans, perhaps even a majority, the opportunistic meat-eating mentioned earlier is not a problem. Maybe this requires a level of thinking beyond your average "but-this-encyclopedia-says" ISF member. Many vegetarians and vegans proudly share stories about being at a restaurant where staff messed up an order. Rather than sending the food back, they ate it. The High Vegan Council still regards them as members in good standing.

I hear hole-digging is good exercise, but I've no interest in it.

 

[shemp]

Eat my dog? Only if it's dinner time.