Man shot, killed by off-duty Dallas police officer who walked into wrong apartment p3

Shadowdweller said:
Naturally, one can accept the possibility that she was wrecked after a long work shift, but still hold her ethically accountable for engaging in a necessarily lethal course of action despite having good reason to expect that her judgment might be impaired.
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Well, she's got some free time now. Maybe she can start a letter writing campaign from her jail cell to reform police working conditions. :thumbsup:
 
Shadowdweller said:
Naturally, one can accept the possibility that she was wrecked after a long work shift, but still hold her ethically accountable for engaging in a necessarily lethal course of action despite having good reason to expect that her judgment might be impaired.
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The problem with impaired judgement is that one of the things that gets impaired is your ability to judge your own impairment.

I think it's profoundly unjust to reach a determination of impaired judgement, and then condemn the impaired party for not properly judging their own impairment.
 
Belz... said:
Based on what?
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Her obvious uselessness for other things, like finding her own front door.

On what basis did you determine that she wasn't too useless for sex?

Bull. You're not going to hit a target unless you're sharp.
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Based on what?

Adrenaline, perhaps, but in either case she was clearly not wasted at the time of the shooting.
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She couldn't even find her own front door. Clearly she was extremely wasted at the time of the shooting.

Kremlinology is fun!
 
acbytesla said:
I'm not saying it was ok because of it. Doing a double isn't a free pass to kill someone. That said, it does a lot to convince me this was a mistake. You're not a cop. Or are you? You don't walk around with a semiautomatic weapon strapped to your waist 10 hours days 4 to 6 days a week. Or do you?

Maybe it's not a good thing for police officers to work those kind of hours. I mean, I've worked long shifts in retail, long shifts in customer service, long shifts in a multitude of jobs but in none of them was I responsible for people's lives and carrying a lethal weapon.
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Fair enough, I was not a cop, but a Private Investigator who carried a gun. Also, unlike the perpetrator, I didn't have the option of a nonlethal weapon like her stun gun and pepper spray. And yes, there were times I had to work 20 hours straight, up in the middle of the night, too much coffee and a lot of anxiety.

I am not comparing myself to her, we had different training, different personalities, different situations. Yet, I never had fantasies of being a hero-PI, wanting to advance in my career, nor did I have a 'trigger-finger' with visions of glory and adoration dancing around.
 
I want Guyger's sentence to be unbelievably long and terrible. Not because I think deterrence is generally a very effective means of keeping the population in line. It isn't. I could be mistaken, but I believe that there has been recent psychological research showing that the perceived legitimacy of the law is the major factor in compliance. I don't believe this is really a case where a temptation not to follow the law was the critical mistake. Not because Guyger herself or Botham Jean deserve it.

I want Guyger's sentence to be so unspeakably terrible that it horrifies not merely Guyger's friends and family...but everyone else in this country. So that the next time a police officer reaches for their gun first, they pause for just an instant and think and feel in a visceral way "Wait, hold up, I don't want to end up like Amber Guyger"; and reflect for just a few moments on what they really know about the individual they are about to challenge and the circumstances of what they are about to do.
 
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acbytesla said:
I'm not saying it was ok because of it. Doing a double isn't a free pass to kill someone. That said, it does a lot to convince me this was a mistake. You're not a cop. Or are you? You don't walk around with a semiautomatic weapon strapped to your waist 10 hours days 4 to 6 days a week. Or do you?

Maybe it's not a good thing for police officers to work those kind of hours. I mean, I've worked long shifts in retail, long shifts in customer service, long shifts in a multitude of jobs but in none of them was I responsible for people's lives and carrying a lethal weapon.
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I walked around with a semiautomatic weapon strapped to my hip and a fully automatic weapon strapped to my back for a full 24 hours a day (I sleep with the weapons next to me) for a full year in conditions a billion times worse then "OMG I've been awake all day and haven't been laid this week" against a much greater threat vector and managed to not shoot anyone illegally
 
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Shadowdweller said:
I want Guyger's sentence to be unbelievably long and terrible. Not because I think deterrence is generally a very effective means of keeping the population in line. It isn't. I could be mistaken, but I believe that there has been recent psychological research showing that the perceived legitimacy of the law is the major factor in compliance. I don't believe this is really a case where a temptation not to follow the law was the critical mistake. Not because Guyger herself or Botham Jean deserve it.

I want Guyger's sentence to be so unspeakably terrible that it horrifies not merely Guyger's friends and family...but everyone else in this country. So that the next time a police officer reaches for their gun first, they pause for just an instant and think "Wait, hold up, I don't want to end up like Amber Guyger"; and reflect for just a few moments on what they really know about the individual they are about to challenge and the circumstances of what they are about to do.
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Now we're talking! Torture! Slavery! Sex trafficking! Let's provide some world-class deterrents, here.
 
acbytesla said:
I'm not knocking her for being concerned about her own career. Are you honestly saying that you wouldn't be too? I just read she had just worked 14 hours. That's a damn long time. I've worked my share of double shifts and I know I was worthless after them. Expecting someone to be anything more than a zombie is a bit unrealistic. This certainly affects my opinion.
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Exactly it is like when you run over a kid, the question is not what can I do to help them, but rather how will this effect my insurance rates, and did anyone see me enough to identify me.
 
theprestige said:
The problem with impaired judgement is that one of the things that gets impaired is your ability to judge your own impairment.

I think it's profoundly unjust to reach a determination of impaired judgement, and then condemn the impaired party for not properly judging their own impairment.
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I expect everyone empowered to use dangerous objects or processes - fire, infectious materials, heavy machinery, motor vehicles - to be able to read their own biological imperatives sufficiently well that they don't cause damage to others.

ETA: Precautions exist within the nursing profession, for example, to ensure that mistakes do not happen in SPITE of impaired judgment. The specifications of all medications are checked three times before being given to the patient. Particularly dangerous medications must sometimes checked by multiple nurses.
 
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Shadowdweller said:
I want Guyger's sentence to be unbelievably long and terrible. Not because I think deterrence is generally a very effective means of keeping the population in line. It isn't. I could be mistaken, but I believe that there has been recent psychological research showing that the perceived legitimacy of the law is the major factor in compliance. I don't believe this is really a case where a temptation not to follow the law was the critical mistake. Not because Guyger herself or Botham Jean deserve it.

I want Guyger's sentence to be so unspeakably terrible that it horrifies not merely Guyger's friends and family...but everyone else in this country. So that the next time a police officer reaches for their gun first, they pause for just an instant and think and feel in a visceral way "Wait, hold up, I don't want to end up like Amber Guyger"; and reflect for just a few moments on what they really know about the individual they are about to challenge and the circumstances of what they are about to do.
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I find it ironic; In her quest and vision to become #1 Female-cop, an example of what a police officer should be, has become an example of the worst type of police officer, and no one wants to be like her.

I believe this case will influence law enforcement conduct in many ways, now and in the future. She may have, inadvertently, made a positive, over all change.
 
wasapi said:
I find it ironic; In her quest and vision to become #1 Female-cop, an example of what a police officer should be, has become an example of the worst type of police officer, and no one wants to be like her.
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Why? What evidence that this is effecting police culture at all?
 
ponderingturtle said:
Why? What evidence that this is effecting police culture at all?
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None so far, but we can hope. It's a bit early yet.

The fact that a Texas jury found a young, relatively attractive, blonde female cop guilty of murder for shooting a big, scary black guy in what she claimed she thought was her own apartment is bound to give some people pause.

Maybe the armor of the Blue Machine is starting to show some chinks.
 
Belz... said:
Which we've now established was due to the fact that she wasn't paying attention because of the aforementioned sex-searching, not fatigue as she claimed.







On the fact that it's already hard to hit a target when you're fully awake.
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Depends on how much you you've been practicing, and how much muscle memory you've baked in.

Also depends on things like distance to the target, motion of the target, etc.
 
acbytesla said:
I'm not knocking her for being concerned about her own career. Are you honestly saying that you wouldn't be too? I just read she had just worked 14 hours. That's a damn long time. I've worked my share of double shifts and I know I was worthless after them. Expecting someone to be anything more than a zombie is a bit unrealistic. This certainly affects my opinion.
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I worked 36 hours straight one time, I **** you not. Granted I was bartending, and it's a different country, but my money was on point and, despite being armed with a large knife, I didn't go to the wrong apartment, let alone kill anyone on the way home.
 
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