Man shot, killed by off-duty Dallas police officer who walked into wrong apartment p3

Does anyone know how long she had been on the job? How long had she been a police officer?
I really wonder how three things played into this.

The first was she was so new as a cop that she felt over her head.

The second was she was just stupid.

The third was she was insecure. Maybe because of her inexperience. Maybe because she was a woman doing what is more traditionally a man's job. There is really a macho attitude among cops. Calling for help is part of the training, but feeling the need to prove oneself is kind of universal.

A lot of information about her background. She had been a cop for five years, and shot a drug suspect previously when other cops on the scene didn't.
https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/s...rder/287-00689014-50f5-495b-9e7b-ebff07a80611

ETA: Note that the 911 tape linked to the above has Gugyer telling the police dispatcher, as her victim lies dying in front of her, "I'm gonna lose my job." That was her foremost concern. Says a lot about her mindset.
 
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A lot of information about her background. She had been a cop for five years, and shot a drug suspect previously when other cops on the scene didn't.
https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/s...rder/287-00689014-50f5-495b-9e7b-ebff07a80611

ETA: Note that the 911 tape linked to the above has Gugyer telling the police dispatcher, as her victim lies dying in front of her, "I'm gonna lose my job." That was her foremost concern. Says a lot about her mindset.

I'm not knocking her for being concerned about her own career. Are you honestly saying that you wouldn't be too? I just read she had just worked 14 hours. That's a damn long time. I've worked my share of double shifts and I know I was worthless after them. Expecting someone to be anything more than a zombie is a bit unrealistic. This certainly affects my opinion.
 
I'm not knocking her for being concerned about her own career. Are you honestly saying that you wouldn't be too? I just read she had just worked 14 hours. That's a damn long time. I've worked my share of double shifts and I know I was worthless after them. Expecting someone to be anything more than a zombie is a bit unrealistic. This certainly affects my opinion.

I believe you are being too generous. Many of us have worked double shifts, been tired, but never murdered anyone. The fact the victim was sitting in his own home, smoking a joint, and eating vanilla cream while watching TV, and was murdered in cold blood, is a fact I can't get past. I really hope she does a significant amount of time in prison. A well deserved significant amount of time.
 
And you are simply, uncomprehendingly wrong. The jury could not convict someone that they know is innocent because the defendant standing in front of them has been arrested, charged, arraigned, indicted, and prosecuted under the law, and a judge has allowed the prosecution to go forward despite what would no doubt be multiple defense requests to dismiss the case. Numerous levels of the judicial system have determined that there is sufficient evidence to prosecute and ultimately to convict. What do you think the jury could know that no one else knows? Jury nullification means that the jury has decided that someone doesn't deserve to be convicted of a crime despite the persuasive evidence against him. A case where there is no evidence against someone would not go to a jury in the first place.

This doesn't make sense to me.

The fact is that trials go to a jury, and sometimes the jury rejects the prosecution's case. If the prosecution's case is always rejectable or not on its face, we wouldn't need juries at all. We'd just point out that the Grand Jury thought there was a case, and the judge thought there was a case, and the judge didn't think the defense's motion to dismiss were compelling... So why even bother with a trial? Why even seek the opinion of a jury?

But we do seek the opinion of a jury. Even after the judge has determined that the case is legitimate, we still ask a jury to hear the prosecution's arguments and make the actual binding decision about those arguments.

Because sometimes the prosecution gets past the Grand Jury, and gets past the judge, and gets past the defense's motions to dismiss, and still fails to establish guilt under the law beyond reasonable doubt, and so the jury returns a verdict of "not guilty" anyway. And I'm saying that in that commonplace scenario, there might be some cases where the jury is convinced of the accused's guilt, even though the prosecution failed to carry their argument, and find the defendant guilty in spite of that.

Forget about whether or not it counts as "nullification". Do you at least acknowledge that a jury can believe someone is guilty, and return a guilty verdict even though they think the prosecution dropped the ball (perhaps even as a corrective measure to make sure justice is done in spite of an incompetent prosecutor)?
 
I'm not knocking her for being concerned about her own career. Are you honestly saying that you wouldn't be too? I just read she had just worked 14 hours. That's a damn long time. I've worked my share of double shifts and I know I was worthless after them. Expecting someone to be anything more than a zombie is a bit unrealistic. This certainly affects my opinion.

More reflexive apologetics. Yes, I can say honestly that if I had just shot somebody who was dying at my feet, my highest priority would not be my next performance review. I might have been asking the dispatcher "What can I do?" "How can I treat him?" There was testimony that trauma supplies were in her backpack, and she never opened them. She never helped her victim. But she had time to text her boyfriend twice.

And as far as exhausted, many of us have worked long hours. It wouldn't excuse wrecking a car or running over a pedestrian. And there was testimony that on her way home she was planning to hook up with said boyfriend later. That's how exhausted she was.
 
I'm not knocking her for being concerned about her own career. Are you honestly saying that you wouldn't be too? I just read she had just worked 14 hours. That's a damn long time. I've worked my share of double shifts and I know I was worthless after them. Expecting someone to be anything more than a zombie is a bit unrealistic. This certainly affects my opinion.

No, it's not. It's perfectly reasonable to expect someone to function after a 14 hour shift. Our standard beet hauling shifts are 4 days of 12 hour shifts. That's just the norm, and I can't recall one of them walking into the wrong apartment and shooting someone after work. That happens every single fall for us, and in fact we're about to start\have started now.

She was sexting, making plans, etc. and had never even mentioned being tired to anyone she ran into that day.

It affects both of our opinions, but mine in the opposite direction. That's weak ****.
 
Okay we're not going to rehash the entire 3 thread long "OMG she was up for the unimaginable length of... a normal day" argument again, especially not after the fact.
 
I'm not knocking her for being concerned about her own career. Are you honestly saying that you wouldn't be too?

Really? Yes I'm saying if I just shot someone by accident and they are bleeding out in front of me my first thought wouldn't be "BUT MY RESUME HASN'T BEEN UPDATED RECENTLY!" because I'm not a psychopath.
 
Really? Yes I'm saying if I just shot someone by accident and they are bleeding out in front of me my first thought wouldn't be "BUT MY RESUME HASN'T BEEN UPDATED RECENTLY!" because I'm not a psychopath.

I'd add myself into this as well. If I were to have accidentally shot someone I would absolutely have done something more than say "stay with me bud" twice, and cried about how wrong I was repeatedly.

Grab a towel, stop the bleeding, try to keep him conscious. This isn't some absurd thing I'm saying in hindsight. My nephews were at my house this weekend and one of them donked his head on my computer desk which is a bit jagged. I felt like it was my fault for not warning them, but I certainly didn't think about how mad my sister was going to be at me. I grabbed a towel, cleaned the wound, got him a band-aid, put neosporin on it. That's instinctual and I'm a ******* systems administrator, not a trained first responder.
 
I'm not knocking her for being concerned about her own career. Are you honestly saying that you wouldn't be too? I just read she had just worked 14 hours. That's a damn long time. I've worked my share of double shifts and I know I was worthless after them. Expecting someone to be anything more than a zombie is a bit unrealistic. This certainly affects my opinion.

Standard shift for RN's in many hospitals is 12 hours. They rarely mange to kill anyone because of tiredness, and those patients are already somewhat compromised. Medical residents can work even longer shifts. Long hours in stressful jobs are quite common. Not an excuse!
 
I'm not knocking her for being concerned about her own career. Are you honestly saying that you wouldn't be too? I just read she had just worked 14 hours. That's a damn long time. I've worked my share of double shifts and I know I was worthless after them. Expecting someone to be anything more than a zombie is a bit unrealistic. This certainly affects my opinion.

She wasn't useless enough for sex, apparently. And certainly not too useless to hit a target in the dark.
 
I believe you are being too generous. Many of us have worked double shifts, been tired, but never murdered anyone. The fact the victim was sitting in his own home, smoking a joint, and eating vanilla cream while watching TV, and was murdered in cold blood, is a fact I can't get past. I really hope she does a significant amount of time in prison. A well deserved significant amount of time.

I'm not saying it was ok because of it. Doing a double isn't a free pass to kill someone. That said, it does a lot to convince me this was a mistake. You're not a cop. Or are you? You don't walk around with a semiautomatic weapon strapped to your waist 10 hours days 4 to 6 days a week. Or do you?

Maybe it's not a good thing for police officers to work those kind of hours. I mean, I've worked long shifts in retail, long shifts in customer service, long shifts in a multitude of jobs but in none of them was I responsible for people's lives and carrying a lethal weapon.
 
I'm okay with murder, as long as she doesn't get *too* long of a sentence. When I said I was inclined toward manslaughter because of the imperfect self-defense angle, I should have added that that was provided that she got something close to the maximum sentence for manslaughter. I hope she serves at least 10 years, which means at least a 20-year sentence.
 
I'm okay with murder, as long as she doesn't get *too* long of a sentence. When I said I was inclined toward manslaughter because of the imperfect self-defense angle, I should have added that that was provided that she got something close to the maximum sentence for manslaughter. I hope she serves at least 10 years, which means at least a 20-year sentence.

I was thinking 5 to 10.
 
Standard shift for RN's in many hospitals is 12 hours. They rarely mange to kill anyone because of tiredness, and those patients are already somewhat compromised. Medical residents can work even longer shifts. Long hours in stressful jobs are quite common. Not an excuse!
Naturally, one can accept the possibility that she was wrecked after a long work shift, but still hold her ethically accountable for engaging in a necessarily lethal course of action despite having good reason to expect that her judgment might be impaired.
 
She wasn't useless enough for sex, apparently. And certainly not too useless to hit a target in the dark.

I don't understand the sex reference. And give me a break. We're talking only a few feet.
 
She wasn't useless enough for sex, apparently.
Apparently she was too useless for sex, but also too tired to realize it.

And certainly not too useless to hit a target in the dark.
Muscle memory. Easy enough to do things by reflex in your sleep, while not being awake enough to determine ahead of time whether it's a good idea.
 

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