ponderingturtle
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That is just basic cop though. Or at least a problem with a very high percentage of police officers.
Man shot, killed by off-duty Dallas police officer who walked into wrong apartment p3
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That is just basic cop though. Or at least a problem with a very high percentage of police officers.
Belz...
Fiend God
20 makes sense to me... though, then what? When she's out, is she a better person? Or are we just sending her away because we're lashing out in social revenge for Jean? I mean, is there a plan to rehabilitate those we send in prison? That question really bugs me.
TurkeysGhost
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That's the thing that was striking me during the trial.
Police training does not override the law. The defense brought in a bunch of cops saying she reacted according to training. Who cares?
The standard is "a reasonable person", not "an average cop". A reasonable person would not act the way Guyger did. If police training is leading officers to act in a way that is inconsistent with the law, then that's just too bad for the police.
"My police training instructed me to act in an unreasonable, reckless way" is not a defense I really find convincing. It's a more nuanced version of "just following orders". Perhaps the police should examine whether their policies are setting up officers for legal liability.
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ponderingturtle
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But how much is it the training, vs the culture? How often are police trained in instantly asserting dominance and control of the situation vs deescalation and continuum of force? I mean as we see here the training didn't take she makes no claim to even remember it.
Police culture is the biggest problem and imposing cultural changes from the outside is rarely all that effective. How do we get cops who want to be better?
whoanellie
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I believe she testified that she drew her weapon before fully opening the door and entering. I could be wrong.
whoanellie
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There are texts from her in which she denies being racist. If you have to deny it.......
Thermal
August Member
Hold up: her racist texts, deleted from her phone, were:
[texter]: when does this parade end?
[Guyger]: When MLK is dead...oh, wait...
and: [texter]: (dog I'm asking you to take care of) may be racist
[Guyger]: it's ok...I'm the same
[Guyger]:I hate everything and everyone but y'all
and talking about black LEOs:
[Guyger}: Not racist but just have a different way of working and it shows
That is 'pretty racist'? The first is callous, but in the context of a parade detail, not racist. The second is purely 'I'm a badass'. The last does seem a pretty racist thing to say.
So they find one racist-ish comment in all of her deleted texts, and means 'Guyger was...pretty racist'? Think you might be reaching to demonize her a little, here? I mean, she's a ******* murderer.
ponderingturtle
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Maybe, I haven't watched her testimony most of my knowledge comes from discussion here and I don't see it as a vital detail in either regard.
And again before we get a wave of the bog standard "OMG they put their lives on the line for us, you don't know what it's like" apologetics... this is not some unreasonable standard.
I compare this to soldiers. In Afghanistan I wasn't dealing with criminals. I was dealing literal killers. People who would, without fail, try to kill me the second the opportunity presented itself. I assure everyone I had days where I was more tired then this ditzy broad had ever found herself (Taliban really like launching rocket attacks in the middle of the night 3-4 days in a row assuring you won't get sleep) and I doubly assure you I was waaaaaay more distracted by my horniness a lot of the time then she was ("I masturbated to an extra curvy piece of driftwood the other day!") and my entire training including bootcamp, SRF A and B training, and the month long training specifically for combat... added to maybe two months.
And this was a FOB of several thousand people, under routine attack so nerve stayed pretty frayed, in horrid conditions and you know how many unlawful shootings we had in the year I was there? One. And that was some idiot civilian contractor who accidentally let one go into a clearing barrel and decided the smart thing to do would be to argue with the range master. Nobody even got hurt.
If you can take a GED educated 18 year yokel from Dishrag West Virginia, train them for two months, and plop them down in 129 degree Kandahar against the Taliban, and get them to understand and follow basic Rules of Engagement and Escalation/Descalation procedures it... ain't... that... difficult.
And I managed to not murder anyone and if I had I would have been punished severely for it and I would have deserved it.
All it takes is a cultural mentality.
I compare this to soldiers. In Afghanistan I wasn't dealing with criminals. I was dealing literal killers. People who would, without fail, try to kill me the second the opportunity presented itself. I assure everyone I had days where I was more tired then this ditzy broad had ever found herself (Taliban really like launching rocket attacks in the middle of the night 3-4 days in a row assuring you won't get sleep) and I doubly assure you I was waaaaaay more distracted by my horniness a lot of the time then she was ("I masturbated to an extra curvy piece of driftwood the other day!") and my entire training including bootcamp, SRF A and B training, and the month long training specifically for combat... added to maybe two months.
And this was a FOB of several thousand people, under routine attack so nerve stayed pretty frayed, in horrid conditions and you know how many unlawful shootings we had in the year I was there? One. And that was some idiot civilian contractor who accidentally let one go into a clearing barrel and decided the smart thing to do would be to argue with the range master. Nobody even got hurt.
If you can take a GED educated 18 year yokel from Dishrag West Virginia, train them for two months, and plop them down in 129 degree Kandahar against the Taliban, and get them to understand and follow basic Rules of Engagement and Escalation/Descalation procedures it... ain't... that... difficult.
And I managed to not murder anyone and if I had I would have been punished severely for it and I would have deserved it.
All it takes is a cultural mentality.
Belz...
Fiend God
Thermal
August Member
Yeah, it's punishment, not rehab. The American prison system is not set up to make the inmates better people. It is set up to make you fear prison/deterrent. Based on the recidivism rates, it done don't work for that, neither.
Sherman Bay
Master Poster
If that's true, then the police training is at fault here. Train people to use force without thinking, give them the tools, authority, and immunity, and that's what they do.
Unfortunately, you can't put police training in jail.
Belz...
Fiend God
Yeah, but I prefer systems that work, rather than those that just make me feel better.
*Shrugs* By that logic let her go now. If your goal is to ensure she never kills again... are we really considering that as some possibility worth worrying about and wasting resources on? I mean what are the odds she's gonna find herself in the exact same insane situation again? What are we even rehabilitating that isn't some absurd "Okay the next time you're tired and horny and walk into the wrong apartment... don't shoot the person." I like to hope she's already learned that lesson.
Amber Guyger is, within a fair degree of reasonable possibility, overwhelmingly likely to never kill another human being again regardless of what we the society acting through the legal system do to her now. Hell if she had been found non-guilty and been released I would consider the possibility remote. For me that's not the point, or at least not the whole or even primary point.
Without branching off into a whole other deep philosophical discussion about the purpose and nature of the legal system, she needs to pay for the crime she did commit more then being saved from herself from some future crimes she might commit.
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ponderingturtle
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Sure, but prison reform is a topic for a different thread. And a murderer is maybe not the best case to make a stand on.
Thermal
August Member
I'd prefer to mitigate the problems up front, rather than wait till the damage is done and run damage control. In the case of the OP, stop teaching cops to rely entirely on shooting as the first/best/only option. Start referring to their firearms as 'career enders' or something.
I'm not entirely sure a rehabilitating prison system would work well in the US, as well as it does in other countries. The cultural starting points may be so different that an overhaul of what being an American citizen means would have to be revamped too heavily.
TurkeysGhost
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Sure, but there's no reason we should treat police training as some valid legal defense. The law is supreme. Breaking the law because your training lead you to break the law is still a crime.
Perhaps if enough cops start getting held accountable, they will demand changes within their own training to avoid this liability.
Most of the problems with policing in this country can be traced back to the lack of criminal and civil consequences for individual officers who violate civil rights. There is a lack of negative feedback for bad behavior.
Belz...
Fiend God
It's not a logic or an argument. It's a question about the purpose of this or that punishment and what our end goal is. I was just thinking aloud and I concede that it's not really on-topic.
Well by that logic, let her go now.
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Belz...
Fiend God
Oh, absolutely. The problem with police culture needs to be addressed ASAP.
whoanellie
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Also, she left her key in the door suggesting she sensed someone was in the apartment and drew her weapon before opening the door. In my mind when and where she drew her weapon is a critical aspect of the case.