Man shot, killed by off-duty Dallas police officer who walked into wrong apartment p3

Disbelief said:
Do we even know if Guyger was able to determine the Jean's race before she opened fire? I'm glad she was convicted and hope the sentence is stiff, but I don't know if race was a deciding factor for her to open fire.
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The prosecutor's story is that Guyger drew her gun outside the apartment, not knowing who was inside, planning on shooting whomever she met in there. If this is true, no racism was involved.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
I have a feeling that if Guyger's victim hadn't been such a wholesome dude, it might have gone differently.
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Disbelief said:
Do we even know if Guyger was able to determine the Jean's race before she opened fire? I'm glad she was convicted and hope the sentence is stiff, but I don't know if race was a deciding factor for her to open fire.
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Belz... said:
Is she racist? I don't think I've heard that about her thus far.
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I never considered the initial shooting incident racists, as noted most all versions of the story agree that Jean and Guyger had never met before and the incident happened so fast and under such weird circumstances I'm not seeing the moment where any conscious racial decision would fit into the sequence of events.

So no the initial event, not racist.

All the effort put into all the after the fact apologetics and excuse making on the other hand...
 
ponderingturtle said:
Nice but that is not her story, she knew someone was inside before she entered the apartment.
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Wait, was that ever firmly established when exactly she drew her gun? I would assume that the defense would deny that she drew in the hallway before entering, because that's extremely damning to her case.

If Guyger admitted she drew in the hallway and deliberately forced a confrontation, that's news to me. Can't see how that's anything but murder.
 
ponderingturtle said:
Nice but that is not her story, she knew someone was inside before she entered the apartment.
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In addition, no witnesses heard her shout "Let me see your hands". But mr. Jean's "hey hey hey" was heard by witnesses. Guyger probably lied about this. She didn't give any commands, just gunned down the perceived intruder.
 
Hevneren said:
The prosecutor's story is that Guyger drew her gun outside the apartment, not knowing who was inside, planning on shooting whomever she met in there. If this is true, no racism was involved.
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Not necessarily. She instantly saw him a a major threat, that kind of snap judgement has been sown to be highly effected by racial bias. If it was a small white woman the odds are pretty good that the resident would not be shot. She didn't plan to kill anyone inside that would then be premeditated murder after all. She saw a threat and society trains people to see black men as a threat.
 
JoeMorgue said:
I never considered the initial shooting incident racists, as noted most all versions of the story agree that Jean and Guyger had never met before and the incident happened so fast and under such weird circumstances I'm not seeing the moment where any conscious racial decision would fit into the sequence of events.

So no the initial event, not racist.

All the effort put into all the after the fact apologetics and excuse making on the other hand...
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My comment isn't meant to support that Guyger was racist in her shooting decision. My point about Jean's character is that the defense, the police, and the media would have smeared him and tried to paint the shooting as his fault as much as possible.

We already know that the police went out of their way to inform the public that Jean had pot (the horror!) in his apartment. Had Jean been anything but a amiable, well-polished corporate professional, you can bet they would have tried to paint him as some black thug.

The racism wouldn't have been in the actual shooting, but in the defense and spin after the fact.
 
Hevneren said:
In addition, no witnesses heard her shout "Let me see your hands". But mr. Jean's "hey hey hey" was heard by witnesses. Guyger probably lied about this. She didn't give any commands, just gunned down the perceived intruder.
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100% serious, I'd wager Guyger literally remembers giving commands even though she didn't. Either she meant to say them (or said them so low as to not be audible) or her mind added them in after the fact as she was creating the fantasy version of the sequence of events in her mind.
 
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SuburbanTurkey said:
Wait, was that ever firmly established when exactly she drew her gun? I would assume that the defense would deny that she drew in the hallway before entering, because that's extremely damning to her case.

If Guyger admitted she drew in the hallway and deliberately forced a confrontation, that's news to me. Can't see how that's anything but murder.
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She admits to knowing someone was in there and choosing not to call for backup, I don't know that they specified when she drew.
 
JoeMorgue said:
100% serious, I'd wager Guyger literally remembers giving commands even though she didn't. Either she meant to say them (or said them so low as to not be audible) or her mind added them in after the fact as she was created the fantasy version of the sequence of events in her mind.
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She's the only surviving person that was in the room. There is nothing to stop her from lying about it after the fact.

To be honest, there's really no reason to believe anything about her account that can't be verified with hard evidence. She has a very strong incentive to lie. I think we have to accept that her actions and intentions, once inside the apartment, are largely unknowable.
 
ponderingturtle said:
She admits to knowing someone was in there and choosing not to call for backup, I don't know that they specified when she drew.
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Is there some citation for this? Not that I'm doubting, but would love to have it as reference. As far as I'm concerned, that's the whole case decided right there.

Mistake of fact and all that is DOA if she had a moment outside the apartment to pull her head out of her ass and still decided to barge in and force a confrontation.
 
chrispy said:
Also of note, she was asked why she didn't retreat to cover and call in an officer assist. SHe just replied, "I could have". The prosecutor folled with, "The Dallas PD headquaters is 2 blocks away, correct?". SHe responded affirmatively. Then, "So, in 2 minutes you could have had the cavalry here, correct?". Again, she responded, "I could have".
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SuburbanTurkey said:
Is there some citation for this? Not that I'm doubting, but would love to have it as reference. As far as I'm concerned, that's the whole case decided right there.

Mistake of fact and all that is DOA if she had a moment outside the apartment to pull her head out of her ass and still decided to barge in and force a confrontation.
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That was were I got the impression that she was aware of an intruder before entering, as that whole line of questioning does not make sense if she was inside the apartment at the time.

I can not find an actual transcript of her testimony but that whole line of questioning requires her realizing there was someone there before the confrontation when she went in.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Well never mind. Looks like Guyger was... pretty racist. (Still say there's no place in the actual initial incident for any conscious "racism" to take place...)

https://nypost.com/2019/10/01/killer-cop-amber-guyger-joked-about-martin-luther-king-jr-s-death/

https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/s...rial/287-c1afb7ab-255c-444f-ac25-e3ba14b2f337
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Wow. What hits me is not the racism per se, but her behind-the-scenes gung-ho attitude. No wonder she went for the bullets first.
 
Belz... said:
Wow. What hits me is not the racism per se, but her behind-the-scenes gung-ho attitude. No wonder she went for the bullets first.
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That's sorta where I landed as well. Without delving too deep into the "What is the official According to Hoyle proper use of the term racism" drollness it seems that she just totally bought into that hardcore cop fantasy that there is some subhuman group of the "others" that she has to defend society from.
 
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Hevneren said:
From her testimony: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7IgyPh8UkQ&t=1h26m54s
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Thank you for that.

Yeah, not sure how there can be any question, her mistake of fact was absurd. No wonder the jury returned Murder so fast.

Guyger's best chance was always the "i walked into the apartment and was suddenly surprised to find it occupied and reacted". Her knowing something was amiss outside the doorway and still proceeding inside without taking a moment to assess the situation is extremely damning. No prudent person would do this. I would say she is culpable 100% for anything that occurs past that moment.


Edit for afterthought: I'm really curious why she didn't lie about this. Seems that no one else knew that she did this and it absolutely sinks her defense.
 
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JoeMorgue said:
That's sorta where I landed as well. Without delving too deep into the "What is the official According to Hoyle proper use of the term racism" drollness it seems that she just totally bought into that hardcore into the cop fantasy that there is some subhuman group of the "others" that she has to defend society from.
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I'm starting to wonder whether she was the bully or the bullied at school, if at all.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
Thank you for that.

Yeah, not sure how there can be any question, her mistake of fact was absurd. No wonder the jury returned Murder so fast.

Guyger's best chance was always the "i walked into the apartment and was suddenly surprised to find it occupied and reacted". Her knowing something was amiss outside the doorway and still proceeding inside without taking a moment to assess the situation is extremely damning. No prudent person would do this. I would say she is culpable 100% for anything that occurs past that moment.
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That's why I'm really hoping 25 years +/- 5 years. If she gets 30 I think I'd do a bit of a jig, but I'd settle for 20 because it's Texas.
 
plague311 said:
That's why I'm really hoping 25 years +/- 5 years. If she gets 30 I think I'd do a bit of a jig, but I'd settle for 20 because it's Texas.
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I have to revise my previous prediction, which was a lower end 10 year guess.

Her actions were grossly careless. Your 25 years +/- 5 strikes me as appropriate.
 
30 years is what I would want to see. 20-25 is perfectly acceptable. 15 is at least tolerable.
 
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