Are atheists inevitably pessimists?

[acbytesla]

As Bill Maher once said:

"Thats what I like about being an atheist. It takes up so little of my time."

It's much more fun watching NFL Today than some pompous pastor prattle on.

GO HAWKS!!

 

[David Mo]

I really wish I understood what the hell you're talking about most of the time. No on second thought I don't. What a truckload of psychobabble bs.

You can absolutely abandon religion and continue to live as nothing happened. Other than a few religious morons trying desperately to reconvert me, little has changed. Not believing in a god is like not believing in Spiderman. It's irrelevant. Nothing happened. The vast majority of people I know call themselves Christians but never read the bible or go to church except for weddings and funerals. They are not really religious..that is unless you're talking football.

"Psychobabble" ...... I though you made that word up, but there it is in my dictionary.

I agree that abandoning religion doesn't leave a hole in you're life. Unlike yourself most of my friends are atheist and don't seem to be searching for anything to complete their lives.

I see you don't understand what I'm saying. I say so because you react aggressively and draw the wrong conclusions. Both things are linked. When someone become nervous his ideas become confuse.

At least you should have clear a thing: I am not defending any kind of religious thinking. I have said several times that religion is illusory, "coward" and dangerous. Do you realize this?

I suppose that you concede everybody the right to live the lack of religion in his own way. There is no obligation to be worried or happy or any other way. In my opinion there are reason to be happy and concerned at once. Both things are linked to the feeling of freedom. I can explain this if you want.

 

[acbytesla]

I see you don't understand what I'm saying. I say so because you react aggressively and draw the wrong conclusions. Both things are linked. When someone become nervous his ideas become confuse.

At least you should have clear a thing: I am not defending any kind of religious thinking. I have said several times that religion is illusory, "coward" and dangerous. Do you realize this?

I suppose that you concede everybody the right to live the lack of religion in his own way. There is no obligation to be worried or happy or any other way. In my opinion there are reason to be happy and concerned at once. Both things are linked to the feeling of freedom. I can explain this if you want.

What conclusion should I have drawn from?

Atheism implies some dramatic question.

What the hell does that mean? You do understand that atheism is simply the disbelief of a single claim? It's like not believing in Big Foot, The Easter Bunny, Spiderman or the Loch Ness Monster. There is no dramatic question. In fact, it's banal.

You cannot abandon religion and continue to live like nothing has happen.

This is bull and a demonstration of ignorance on parade.

This is the existential "nausea" that every one copes as he can. There are lucid ways and illusory ways.

Koo koo for cocoa puffs. This is nonsense.

 

[Czarcasm]

Abandon religion? How can I abandon a club I was never a member of in the first place?
As far as being pessimistic is concerned, I see wonderful things accomplished by wonderful people every single day, and not one of those accomplishments were assisted by ghosts(holy or otherwise). Real, live people give me hope, show me love and inspire me to be a better me.
I believe in people.

 

[David Mo]

Abandon religion? How can I abandon a club I was never a member of in the first place?
As far as being pessimistic is concerned, I see wonderful things accomplished by wonderful people every single day, and not one of those accomplishments were assisted by ghosts(holy or otherwise). Real, live people give me hope, show me love and inspire me to be a better me.
I believe in people.

"People" doesn't exist. It is a fiction invoked by all demagogues, from Roman emperors to US presidents. What you call "people" is divided into opposing factions. That struggle is often violent and cruel. Some "people" oppose others and end up in wars that are very popular. Even if it doesn't get violent, "people" is generally uneducated and cowardly. They submit to dictators without lifting a finger and even hate those who fight against dictatorships.

The only excuse people has is that it doesn't exist. Like God. Don't substitute an idol for other.

Another thing is that you know great people. Fortunately, there are many. Like there is evil, stupid and cowardly people. But neither of them are "the" people.

NOTE: I used "abandon" as an extreme circumstance of the choice between religion and unbelief.

 

[David Mo]

What conclusion should I have drawn from?

What the hell does that mean? You do understand that atheism is simply the disbelief of a single claim? It's like not believing in Big Foot, The Easter Bunny, Spiderman or the Loch Ness Monster. There is no dramatic question. In fact, it's banal.

This is bull and a demonstration of ignorance on parade.


Koo koo for cocoa puffs. This is nonsense.

I don't know if you realize it, but none of the examples you've cited is God. They are myths, but not God the Father. God is the Superfather understood as Providence, Love, Justice, etc. He explains everything and what He does not explain now will be explained on the day of Judgment Day we will understand what we do not understand now. In order to achieve so many wonders, we only have to stop thinking on our own and submit ourselves unreservedly to God... and his representatives on Earth.

If you believe that all that can be given up without surprises, many people do not believe it.

When I said that the choice (not just the abandonment) between having a Superfather and staying alone in the world was dramatic, I meant that it is not banal, but that it implies a very serious thing: the conscious use of freedom.

Of course, if you have achieved ataraxia and the continuous spectacle of the injustices and cruelties of this world and the death of a loved one do not cause you problems, staying alone in the world will seem banal to you. I didn't succeed in it. Ataraxia, I mean.

 

[Czarcasm]

"People" doesn't exist. It is a fiction invoked by all demagogues, from Roman emperors to US presidents. What you call "people" is divided into opposing factions. That struggle is often violent and cruel. Some "people" oppose others and end up in wars that are very popular. Even if it doesn't get violent, "people" is generally uneducated and cowardly. They submit to dictators without lifting a finger and even hate those who fight against dictatorships.

The only excuse people has is that it doesn't exist. Like God. Don't substitute an idol for other.

Another thing is that you know great people. Fortunately, there are many. Like there is evil, stupid and cowardly people. But neither of them are "the" people.

NOTE: I used "abandon" as an extreme circumstance of the choice between religion and unbelief.

So sad.
BTW, how many religions have you "abandoned"?

 

[acbytesla]

I don't know if you realize it, but none of the examples you've cited is God. They are myths, but not God the Father. God is the Superfather understood as Providence, Love, Justice, etc. He explains everything and what He does not explain now will be explained on the day of Judgment Day we will understand what we do not understand now. In order to achieve so many wonders, we only have to stop thinking on our own and submit ourselves unreservedly to God... and his representatives on Earth.

i don't know if you realize it. But gods are myths. We refer to Gods our ancestors worshipped as Greek, Roman, Indian and Norse mythologies. People just replaced those mythologies with a Jewish mythology...or a Mormon mythology or Muslim mythology etc. The fact is just like the Greeks couldn't prove that Zeus exists neither can you provide credible evidence of your or any god. So not believing in an unfalsifiable God is EXACTLY like not believing in Spiderman

If you believe that all that can be given up without surprises, many people do not believe it.

Huh? I don't care what others believe or don't believe. Relying on a other's beliefs is the ad populum fallacy.

When I said that the choice (not just the abandonment) between having a Superfather and staying alone in the world was dramatic, I meant that it is not banal, but that it implies a very serious thing: the conscious use of freedom.

Of course, if you have achieved ataraxia and the continuous spectacle of the injustices and cruelties of this world and the death of a loved one do not cause you problems, staying alone in the world will seem banal to you. I didn't succeed in it. Ataraxia, I mean.

Who cares if you think it isn't banal? It is to us and there is no credible reason to believe we are mistaken. There is no dramatic question posed to those of us who don't believe in the unbelievable. You prattle on with nonsense babble. Having an imaginary friend doesn't make you less alone. It just means you have lost touch with reality.

I'm not at peace with this with this world. I expect every day to be a struggle. There appears to be an endless supply of challenges to take on and questions to be answered. I'm OK with that. That's life. What I DON'T DO is make up answers with bs. I don't worship the God of the Gaps. Doing that is weak and intellectually lazy. How about instead of filling in the answers with religious or philosophical babble, you start doing the work in finding out the actual answers? By the way, the first step in addressing the questions is being comfortable with not knowing and being able to say three little words.

I DON'TKNOW.

 

[JesseCuster]

I don't know if you realize it, but none of the examples you've cited is God. They are myths, but not God the Father. God is the Superfather understood as Providence, Love, Justice, etc. He explains everything and what He does not explain now will be explained on the day of Judgment Day we will understand what we do not understand now. In order to achieve so many wonders, we only have to stop thinking on our own and submit ourselves unreservedly to God... and his representatives on Earth.

That is not what "God" means. That is an extremely narrow and idiosyncratic definition of God. If you insist that only people who have given up your own weirdly specific definition of God can do so without some sort of existentialist nausea, then you're not making much of a point. When people abandoned religion, they generally do so without believing in the oddball definition you just posted, so you're not really making any sort of point at all here.

I used to believe in God, and I gave up that belief without any sort of trauma. I didn't believe in the God you're talking about, does that mean I didn't really abandon a belief in God, because the God I believed in was different than what you insist God is, and wasn't really God at all?

This is rather silly.

 

[David Mo]

i don't know if you realize it. But gods are myths. We refer to Gods our ancestors worshipped as Greek, Roman, Indian and Norse mythologies. People just replaced those mythologies with a Jewish mythology...or a Mormon mythology or Muslim mythology etc. The fact is just like the Greeks couldn't prove that Zeus exists neither can you provide credible evidence of your or any god. So not believing in an unfalsifiable God is EXACTLY like not believing in Spiderman
Huh? I don't care what others believe or don't believe. Relying on a other's beliefs is the ad populum fallacy.



Who cares if you think it isn't banal? It is to us and there is no credible reason to believe we are mistaken. There is no dramatic question posed to those of us who don't believe in the unbelievable. You prattle on with nonsense babble. Having an imaginary friend doesn't make you less alone. It just means you have lost touch with reality.

I'm not at peace with this with this world. I expect every day to be a struggle. There appears to be an endless supply of challenges to take on and questions to be answered. I'm OK with that. That's life. What I DON'T DO is make up answers with bs. I don't worship the God of the Gaps. Doing that is weak and intellectually lazy. How about instead of filling in the answers with religious or philosophical babble, you start doing the work in finding out the actual answers? By the way, the first step in addressing the questions is being comfortable with not knowing and being able to say three little words.

I DON'TKNOW.

If you don't care what others think why are you arguing in this forum? If you have achieved total autonomy of thought and deed you are like God. Go fishing and let mortals take care of mortals' affairs.

Irony aside, what matters is not whether people take the truth as a drama or a revelry. That depends on the character of each one and the purpose of the life each one chooses. What matters is that you accept the truth and not depend on myths.

As for myths: God, Spiderman and Rita Hayworth are myths. They have one thing in common: they are exceptional beings that men invent. And they are different in many things: only God is the Superfather who explains everything because he knows everything and can do everything. For those who believe in him, of course. And that belief has very important practical consequences in the lives of those who believe in God. Of those that worship Rita Hayworth too, but to a much lesser extent. Don't tell me you don't see the difference between God and Rita Hayworth. (Don't make easy jokes, please).

 

[David Mo]

That is not what "God" means. That is an extremely narrow and idiosyncratic definition of God. If you insist that only people who have given up your own weirdly specific definition of God can do so without some sort of existentialist nausea, then you're not making much of a point. When people abandoned religion, they generally do so without believing in the oddball definition you just posted, so you're not really making any sort of point at all here.

I used to believe in God, and I gave up that belief without any sort of trauma. I didn't believe in the God you're talking about, does that mean I didn't really abandon a belief in God, because the God I believed in was different than what you insist God is, and wasn't really God at all?

This is rather silly.

I don't know what god was preached to you but what I have said is what is read in the Bible and in the catechism that I was made to learn as a child (compulsory subject). From what I know of the Koran, it is not very different for Muslims. So when a convinced Christian abandons belief, it is in that Superfather that he stops believing. Unless he doesn't replace it with a similar concept. I was alluding to a Christian who becomes an atheist. No Superfather remains.

The "nausea" is a feeling that doesn't have to be overwhelming, but it describes quite well the responsibility one acquires when one assumes freedom from any religion. Now the guidelines for action are not set beforehand by a higher entity, but must be "invented" by oneself. And one can no longer assume that the world has a meaning, but it is one who has to create it oneself.
Of course you can create new idols to worship, to be told what to do without having to take responsibility for your own freedom. But that is not exactly lucid, but as illusory as the old religion.

 

[David Mo]

So sad.
BTW, how many religions have you "abandoned"?

None. Rather religion abandoned me. I awake a day and it was not there. Since I was almost a child, I didn't worry too much. I still had my Zane Grey's novels.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

If you don't care what others think why are you arguing in this forum? If you have achieved total autonomy of thought and deed you are like God. Go fishing and let mortals take care of mortals' affairs.

Actually, many of the gods people have worshipped through the ages have very much cared about what people thought of them. 'The Lord your God is a jealous God', for example, who needs endless grovelling, praise and sacrifices to keep him happy. Greek and Roman mythology is full of examples of the gods getting in a huff because of some real or perceived slight from a mortal. Muslims grovel 5 times a day, and will go to hell if they don't.
If the god or gods were content to 'let mortals take care of mortals' affairs', it would be a relief for everyone. Instead, there is constant strife about which god to appease, and how to do it.

 

[JesseCuster]

I don't know what god was preached to you but what I have said is what is read in the Bible and in the catechism that I was made to learn as a child (compulsory subject).

What you learned as a child is not the end all and be all of beliefs and concepts of God. Lots of people learn different concepts of God, with different attributes, behaviours, etc. Nothing special about the ideas taught to you as a child by your religious elders.

The definition you posted above is not universal. It is not some sort of standard belief that believers have. I know lots of people who are God believers and wouldn't accept what you posted as representing their beliefs. There's a huge variety of beliefs that fall under the idea of 'God'. What's so special about yours?

The Bible contains a load of nonsense that's insane, contradictory, wishy-washy, vague, etc. You can make up any definition of God you want by cherry picked and interpreting it as you wish. In fact, that's what people do.

Most people aren't Christian. Most Christians haven't read the Bible. Most Christian sects can't agree on what God is, what he does, etc. Why should we take what was taught to you as a child as some sort of correct belief in God that we should be referring to when we talk about losing faith in God?

 

[David Mo]

Actually, many of the gods people have worshipped through the ages have very much cared about what people thought of them. 'The Lord your God is a jealous God', for example, who needs endless grovelling, praise and sacrifices to keep him happy. Greek and Roman mythology is full of examples of the gods getting in a huff because of some real or perceived slight from a mortal. Muslims grovel 5 times a day, and will go to hell if they don't.
If the god or gods were content to 'let mortals take care of mortals' affairs', it would be a relief for everyone. Instead, there is constant strife about which god to appease, and how to do it.

What you learned as a child is not the end all and be all of beliefs and concepts of God. Lots of people learn different concepts of God, with different attributes, behaviours, etc. Nothing special about the ideas taught to you as a child by your religious elders.

The definition you posted above is not universal. It is not some sort of standard belief that believers have. I know lots of people who are God believers and wouldn't accept what you posted as representing their beliefs. There's a huge variety of beliefs that fall under the idea of 'God'. What's so special about yours?

The Bible contains a load of nonsense that's insane, contradictory, wishy-washy, vague, etc. You can make up any definition of God you want by cherry picked and interpreting it as you wish. In fact, that's what people do.

Most people aren't Christian. Most Christians haven't read the Bible. Most Christian sects can't agree on what God is, what he does, etc. Why should we take what was taught to you as a child as some sort of correct belief in God that we should be referring to when we talk about losing faith in God?

I'm not giving a universal definition of God. I am not referring to the religion of the Trobriand Islands or the animism of Cameroon. I am referring to the dominant religions in the culture of European and Meditarraenean origin. Primarily of Christian or Muslim origin. As for all the Christians I know, be they sects, churches or private individuals, they believe in a God like the one I have described with four or five main features. If there is anyone who does not believe in that, you tell us. And if it is to be excluded from my argument, I will exclude it.

I repeat:
God is the Allmighty Superfather understood as Providence, Love, Justice, etc. He explains everything and gives eternal life. In order to be elected, we only have to submit ourselves unreservedly to God... and his representatives on Earth.

 

[quadraginta]

I never really believed in the "God" of my parents to a much more significant degree than I had Sandy Claws or the Eastern Bunny (etc.).

I gave up churches and religion when I realized that, around the age of fourteen or so. I expect I had been building up to it for some time before then. It's just more prolonged when it's something your family seems to want you to continue to believe, unlike those other kiddy figures and fairy tales.

So there wasn't really all that much to "abandon". It isn't like there was a lot there to begin with.

 

[quadraginta]

I'm not giving a universal definition of God. I am not referring to the religion of the Trobriand Islands or the animism of Cameroon. I am referring to the dominant religions in the culture of European and Meditarraenean origin. Primarily of Christian or Muslim origin. As for all the Christians I know, be they sects, churches or private individuals, they believe in a God like the one I have described with four or five main features. If there is anyone who does not believe in that, you tell us. And if it is to be excluded from my argument, I will exclude it.
<snip>

Sounds like a convenient fail-safe backup plan.

 

[wasapi]

Referring to the OP;

I believe that Robert Lancaster is a good example of an atheist who was NOT a pessimist. He had an incredible sense of humor.

 

[Aridas]

Taking a look at this thread, I'm mildly surprise that it went past...

Having no underlying spiritual beliefs to mitigate suffering, are atheists inevitably seeing the world through a glass darkly?

No.

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." 1 Corinthians 13:12

By the look of it, you're taking this verse out of context to try to back up a strange interpretation.

 

[acbytesla]

As for myths: God, Spiderman and Rita Hayworth are myths. They have one thing in common: they are exceptional beings that men invent. And they are different in many things: only God is the Superfather who explains everything because he knows everything and can do everything. For those who believe in him, of course. And that belief has very important practical consequences in the lives of those who believe in God. Of those that worship Rita Hayworth too, but to a much lesser extent. Don't tell me you don't see the difference between God and Rita Hayworth. (Don't make easy jokes, please).

More batcrap crazy nonsense.

Rita Hayworth was a real life human being. Born Margarita Carmen Cansino she appeared in 66 movies. Gilda is a must see for any cinephile. There is nothing mythical about her.

Spiderman is a fictional character as is EVERY GOD ever posited as best we can tell. Can you prove the existence of your 'supergod". I bet my ass you can't. I have yet to see credible evidence of any god.

Christians and Jews can no more prove the existence of their god Yahweh than Muslims can prove Allah or Norwegians can prove Wotan and Thor.

But go ahead, feel free to provide evidence of your imaginary friend. I'm waiting.