Cont: Brexit: Now What? Magic 8 Ball's up

[The Don]

I find it unlikely there's need to do so for every day of the week. How hectic are the schedules you're talking about anyway?

McHrozni

I don't know, I don't have children.

I only have an impression from friends and from the TV where it seems that kids are coming and going all hours of the day and night and where even the parents don't have the time to, or choose not to, sit down together for the same meal.

 

[Vixen]

True but then again you need to peel and prepare the potatoes, hardly onerous but it adds to the time. Once boiled you need to mash the potatoes, again not a difficult or time consuming task but again adding to the overall time.

You also need to make a bechamel sauce, again hardly an onerous thing but it adds to the overall time.

You also need to assemble said pie and bake it in the oven. All of the preparation requires active participation as opposed to just sticking a ready-made pie in the oven.

Looking at the washing up from a made from scratch ocean pie you have:

• Potato pan
• Frying pan for the fish (though I would poach them in milk and use the milk to make the bechamel)
• Bechamel pan
• Dish you baked the pie in
• Whatever you made the accompanying veg in

Again, doing the washing up for this list isn't difficult and will add a few minutes to your day but its more difficult than just recycling whatever container(s) the ready meal came in.

Then of course you needed to have all the ingredients bought and to hand.

Cooking from scratch is rewarding but it requires a lot more work and creates a lot more mess. Making a ragu lasagne properly takes all day and that's great if you have the time and even better if you can, like on the telly, involve the children and teach them to cook in the process. Real life often isn't like that and sticking a ready-made lasagne in the oven for 20-30 minutes while you get on with the ironing (or some other household task) may be more practical for a busy family.

May I suggest just boiling new potatoes in their skin and using a piece of fresh fish? However, fish pie is not that difficult to make. Morrisons do a great ready chopped multi-fish ensemble. However, it's not particularly cheap and you do have to oven bake it. But if you make a large quantity it can last you over several meals.

 

[Vixen]

No, that's one meal. At worst you might have to prepare tofu first, cook it, remove it and then throw in the fish or whatever, to avoid contamination.

Even that is only necessary if he's the obnoxious kind of vegan, in which case I recommend disowning anyway.

McHrozni

What I mean is when he is around, I also go vegan (if only for that particular meal).

 

[Vixen]

Yes it is a matter of commitment, planning and so on.

Do you have the time to spend all Saturday or Sunday in the kitchen each week preparing a variety of meals for the family to enjoy over the next week ? (assuming that you have the resources and skills to do so) Some people do make the time to do that. Others do not.

Mrs Don and I are a couple who mostly work from home. We have the time to do exactly what you suggest but it's easier for us because we almost always eat the same thing at the same time.

Before he went vegan he was vegetarian and it was easy enough to substitute Quorn for the chicken/beef/pork/mince for a delicious meal.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Many reasons:

• Time - many people think they don't have time to shop for, and cook, meals from scratch
• Resources - Not everyone has a well equipped kitchen, or indeed any kind of kitchen, they may only have a microwave
• Skills - you're fortunate to be a self-proclaimed excellent chef who would do well on Masterchef, many people wouldn't know how to chop an egg, much less boil an onion
• Opportunity - these days it seems that a lot of families don't sit down to dinner together, either because their schedules don't align
• Demand - in some families, each person has their own dietary requirements (real and/or imagined), cooking five separate meals simply isn't an option

By the way, if you go for cheaper ready meals, you can eat (badly) for comfortably under £1.50 a head.

I find myself eating a lot more junk now that i am on my own in the house mostly. Partly laziness and partly that I find having individual portion sizes saves a lot of food waste. If I buy ingredients to cook with then I end up having a lot of leftover things going to waste in the fridge and cupboards. I'm sure I could be more organised and plan things better but that's too much effort to be bothered with

 

[Nessie]

Definitely. I note the Shetland islands are almost as far north as me.

Scotland is further north than most of Denmark, if being north is one of the qualifiers.

Do you count any Baltic States as Scandinavian? Latvia, which is the same latitude as Scotland likes to think of itself as in the club (according to a book I read when visiting last year).

 

[Arcade22]

That commons chamber looks like it needs a good refurbishment. Maybe a few extra seats as well.

It doesn't even have an electronic voting system. It's like something out of the stone age...

 

[Wudang]

It doesn't even have an electronic voting system. It's like something out of the stone age...

JRM's sister Annunziata complained of the EU wasting money giving her an iPad when she was elected as an MEP. Her mindset was that such devices are toys rather than tools. So she was hideously unprepared.

Much like many UK parents complaining about kids having smartphones while schools are using them apps like Show My Homework. I approve enthusiastically. "Got any homework?" "No." "You mean no apart from that maths work, right?" "Oh right".

 

[Information Analyst]

Typical ******* foreigners, reading and understanding the rules; turning up to negotiations prepared and with all their ducks in a row; and having a clear idea about what they want and how to go about getting it.

Not at all like the proper Corinthian approach that David Davis, his colleagues and his successors have brought to the Brexit process.

<innocent whistle>

 

[Information Analyst]

I think that would be rather risky with regards to medicines and foodstuffs. We have already had horsemeat lasagnes god knows what would happen if there were no checks at all.

We ate horsemeat during the War! Where's your Blitz Spirit?!

 

[McHrozni]

I don't know, I don't have children.

I only have an impression from friends and from the TV where it seems that kids are coming and going all hours of the day and night and where even the parents don't have the time to, or choose not to, sit down together for the same meal.

Unless there is some profound difference between UK and the mainland, the impression is false.

I doubt there is. It's more willingness than anything else, I think.

McHrozni

 

[uke2se]

It blocks the stalling tactic of BJ as means to achieve the legal default. Should the bill become law, he will be forced to go to the EU and ask for another extension.

I apologize for repeating myself, but I think the EU will tell him sure, but Parliament must okay a second referendum if you want that. Under those conditions Parliament will vote for one.

Then they'll fight to death over what options to include. Because that's the real kick in the balls this particular case.

McHrozni

I don't think the EU will put any conditions on an extension. I particularly don't think they will demand that Parliament okays a second referendum. That would be seen as meddling in a member state's politics and would be used negatively by populist movements in other member states.

 

[McHrozni]

Is Boris Johnson obliged to go to Brussels to ask for an extension in a way that it might be granted ? Could he instead wrap the request in preconditions which will make it impossible for the EU to accept ? For example "The UK parliament has forced me to ask for an extension but you must also remove the backstop".

Hm, let's see. Article 50 of the Lisbon treaty:

The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.

There has to be an agreement with the member state. Presumably in this case the EC would tell BJ to cram it and offer an extension acceptable to the EU and ask for "relevant authorities" (or some such wording) in UK to agree. I'd expect Parliament be given a vote in this case and it would pass.

Could he also reject the extension out of hand ? If, for example the EU insists on a second referendum, could Boris Johnson reject it out of hand without referring the terms to Parliament because although Parliament has requested an extension, it hasn't necessarily agreed to any and all preconditions for that extension ?

This is down to the British constitutional system (or lack thereof). If the question can be asked to Parliament (and Bercow will ensure that happens) and Parliament consents, there is little BJ can do to stop it. Maybe if he set a bomb under the building killing everyone or something, wouldn't that be appropriate.

Especially if it was five days after current Brexit day.

But I doubt even that would work. Suppose he really does kill every elected official with the capacity to agree to an extension, no designated survivor survives. In such extreme case I'd expect the Queen would agree to an extension while a new Parliament was elected and that would be fine with EU.

McHrozni

 

[McHrozni]

I don't think the EU will put any conditions on an extension. I particularly don't think they will demand that Parliament okays a second referendum. That would be seen as meddling in a member state's politics and would be used negatively by populist movements in other member states.

Yes and no. There is precendens - EU conditioned a longer extension back in March to UK hodling elections to European parliament. That had to be legislated for in the UK. The reason was rather good, to ensure European parliament is propertly constituted and the whole thing doesn't result in a constitutional crisis.

I fully agree that conditioning a referendum for the first extension would be improper meddling in British affairs, but this would be the third extension with UK still offering exactly zero solutions while begging for more time. EU could also offer options - legislating for a referendum, scheduling another election or else passing the WA. UK can have an extension of X months, if one (or more) of those happen in the last two weeks of October.

This is not improper meddling any more. It's just a prudent offer that will, hopefully, produce a Brexit resolution.

McHrozni

 

[Vixen]

According to a 2013 BBC article on the rise of the ready meal:

It all started with turkey and television and is now an industry worth £2.6bn in the UK alone. It's safe to say ready meals are an essential ingredient in what the British eat.

The roots of the modern ready meal go back to 1950s America and a food company called Swansons, although others had dabbled with them previously.

Left with a huge surplus of turkey after Thanksgiving in 1953, Swansons hit upon the idea of packaging it up with all the other components of the traditional American dinner. But the stroke of genius was packing it all into the aluminium trays used to serve food by airlines. The containers acted as both baking tray to cook the frozen meal and a plate off which to eat it.

<snip>

It was a while before the ready meal took off in the UK. This is largely because domestic freezers did not become the norm until the late 1960s and early 70s, says Alan Warde, professor of sociology at the University of Manchester and author of Consumption, Food and Taste.

"When there was a universal domestic way of storing frozen food, companies saw the commercial opportunities associated with it."

<snip>

But it wasn't only technology that firms were capitalising on, the rise in divorce rates was also considered an opportunity. More men were having to cook for themselves and ready meal producers were on hand to make it as easy for them as possible. Advertising campaigns were targeted at single men, although this sales tactic wasn't without its problems.

<snip>

Chilled ready meal sales rose throughout the 80s and the arrival of microwaves in the domestic kitchen only increased them further.

By 2012, the chilled ready meal made up 57% of the UK prepared meals market, according to business analysts Mintel. The market as a whole - now dominated by supermarkets making their own meals - is valued at £2.6bn.

<snip>

But the nutritional content of such food has attracted negative publicity. A study published in the British Medical Journal in December found that not even one of 100 supermarket ready meals it analysed fully complied with nutritional guidelines set by the World Health Organization. Another study by the University of Glasgow branded ready meals as "nutritionally chaotic".

Regardless, the market keeps on growing. But some people were never fans and never will be.

"When you open a ready meal up and peel off the plastic what you are left with is often neither appealing to the eye nor palate," says Fort.

So, how would a no-deal Brexit impact on the UK love of ready meals?

From the GUARDIAN:

Imports
Frozen potatoes
Frozen potato products, such as chips, are the largest category of UK potato imports, with 99% coming from the EU, particularly the Netherlands and Belgium.

UK self-sufficiency has dropped from 78% in 1989 to 61% today:

The UK’s self-sufficiency in food production has been declining over the last two decades, and now sits at 61%. Changing consumer habits have partly fuelled the change, with perishable fresh food expected to be on supermarket shelves all year round.

Elsewhere. it's reported that the food and drink industry is concerned:

Key industry players have been raising their concerns about the looming prospect of a no-deal for months. Earlier this month, the UK Food and Drink Federation (FDF) stated that it “will inflict serious and – in some cases mortal – damage on UK food and drink.” FDF Chief Executive, Ian Wright, further highlighted that a no-deal Brexit would destroy the opportunities to make the country’s £4 billion (US$4.9 bn) food chain the most dynamic, sustainable and competitive in the world, as detailed in the industry's recently published “Plan for Success.”

and on another page:

A highlighted concern is ensuring that a no-deal Brexit does not disrupt food supplies, British farmers and standards. As British food is exported either to or through EU countries, and one-third of UK food currently comes from Europe, Sustain fears serious disruption in either direction will have a “devastating effect on British farmers and food producers, as well as consumers.”

“Over eight million citizens in the UK already live in food insecurity and do not have the means to stockpile or cope with even a short-term disruption in food supply in the event of a no-deal Brexit, nor to afford higher prices associated with scarcity or currency fluctuation. In addition, we are very concerned that food donations to food banks could dry up,” Chief Executive of Sustain, Kath Dalmeny, says in a letter to the UK’s new premier.

Meat is the main ingredient of ready meals according to a recent report (2018), with chicken being 35% of it. 90% of vegetarian meals are cheese-based.

The UK should be able to be self-sufficient for some of this meat but without EU subsidies, cost could be driven up, which of course, will be passed on to consumers.

Then there will be a massive headache with food labelling, especially for packaged ready meals with multiple ingredients:

In a recent article, Interpack organizers discuss the challenges that will affect the industry in the eventuality that the UK leaves the EU without any regulations. A certainty remains – the industry will have to implement new regulations when it comes to food.

From the moment the UK leaves the EU, labels on packaging must indicate the manufacturer’s addresses in the countries in which the goods are sold. For instance, if products that are manufactured in the EU are sold in the UK, the label must also indicate the manufacturer’s address in the UK. Alternatively, every company that is based in the UK and sell products in the EU must have an EU address and indicate this on the label.

The Economic Operators’ Registration and Identification (EORI) number is a European customs number that identifies economic agents in the movement of goods. Thanks to automation, this number can help alleviate customs clearances within the EU. However, if British companies already have an EORI number, these will expire once Britain leaves the EU. Companies must then re-apply.

Furthermore, both the organic label, valid throughout Europe, and the EU emblem will no longer be permitted for use on British organic and other affected products. Exceptions may be made by an equivalence agreement between the UK and the EU that is based on the recognition of the respective standards.

https://www.frozenfoodeurope.com/how-will-brexit-affect-the-packaging-and-processing-industries/


One good thing about ready-meals, is that they can be stock piled by the consumer and the shops in freezers for years. I read somewhere that some of Iceland's fish and chicken is years' old although I don't know whether that is true.

 

[Ethan Thane Athen]

I wonder if it's related to the fact that UK has the longest working hours in the EU? The perception of having no time between getting home and the kids needing food? The belief that it takes a long time to cook a meal even though so many watch programmes like Jamie's 15 minute meals? There's an old joke that the typical UK person eats a microwaved sherpherd's pie while watching Masterchef.

There is a disjoint and I'm not sure it can be pinned down to one factor. I suspect it's a combination : people work longer hours so are a but more likely to get a ready meal. This creates a slightly bigger market and supermarkets are always looking for the next niche to expand into so produce more ready meals. People see more ready meals so are more likely to get them. Competition between supermarkets for that market increases quality for price in one part of the market and more bargain basement options.

This. Especially the working hours but with both parents working they just don’t want to have to think about cooking when they get in tired and stressed. Just whack each persons meal in the microwave - no need to plan or think.

 

[Andy_Ross]

I read somewhere that some of Iceland's fish and chicken is years' old although I don't know whether that is true.

I read somewhere that the Earth is flat.

 

[Vixen]

Scotland is further north than most of Denmark, if being north is one of the qualifiers.

Do you count any Baltic States as Scandinavian? Latvia, which is the same latitude as Scotland likes to think of itself as in the club (according to a book I read when visiting last year).

Scandinavia AIUI is a geographical landmass relating to a specific chunk of land, which includes Norway, Sweden and Denmark. Iceland is often included as it belongs to Denmark (or once did).

Latvia is one of the Baltic states and because politically, like Estonia and Lithuania it was once a Soviet vassal state, it isn't usually regarded as 'scandinavian'. The term 'Nordic' is probably better as it refers to the whole region. Culturally, though, I wouldn't say former Soviet states were particularly 'nordic' in style or custom.

 

[Vixen]

<innocent whistle>

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_335705d6f85e92e54d.jpg[/qimg]

That was just Barnier trying to make our Brit look stupid and unprepared. Bloody bastard, having a pile of papers in front of him.

There's always one at every meeting.

 

[Information Analyst]

Well, that just doesn't seem to be a sensible long term strategy - not to speak of the obvious monumental national disaster of a no-deal Brexit. Very strange. Though, am a Nordic and we have a tough time of understanding British politics anyway

You have to bear in mind that Johnson has - above all else - always wanted to be Prime Minister. Delusionally seeing something of Churchill in himself, he thinks it's his manifest destiny to lead the country. How he leads it doesn't matter, but the longer then better.

Currently his plan is to remain PM and then force through a No Deal Brexit, thus cementing his position as the Top Posh Boy that the Conservative Party rank and file adore. If that means a snap election that he wins, more the better, because he gets a few more years as PM. If he loses the election, Corbyn (presumably) takes the flak if Brexit doesn't happen, or if it's anything other than a No Deal Brexit. Johnson can then subsequently be re-elected on never-ending promises to "finish the job."