Cont: Brexit: Now What? Magic 8 Ball's up

[Nessie]

No it doesn't work like that. A vote is either won or lost.

Once again, the way the ERG* voted on May's deal made no difference to the outcome. May's deal was repeatedly defeated by the opposition parties working in alliance with the DUP*. The ERG* votes meant May's deal was defeated by a bigger margin, but a defeat is a defeat, whether by one vote or four hundred. If the entirety of the ERG* had voted for May's deal every time, it would still have been defeated on each occasion.

*ERG = European Research Group (Jacob Rees-Mogg and Co.)
*DUP = Democratic Unionist Party (Northern Irish party, normally supporting the government - but not on May's deal)

When I said Tory brexiteers, I did not just mean the ERG*. I mean all the Tories who were for leaving, but who voted against May's deal. The vote on May's deal on the 15th January was the largest defeat ever in UK parliamentary history. The second vote was also a massive defeat.

*I know what that and DUP stands for.

 

[Nessie]

If around 48 % voted to remain, which is a clear-cut choice, and the leave vote is split into groups wanting a Norway-type deal, a Canada-type deal, a no deal, etc., can we really say the people voted to leave? This always bugged me. All these outcomes are so different that the leaving part almost seems incidental.

History will not be kind to those who drove leaving the EU, with no plan/multiple plans they could not agree on.

 

[ceptimus]

When I said Tory brexiteers, I did not just mean the ERG*. I mean all the Tories who were for leaving, but who voted against May's deal. The vote on May's deal on the 15th January was the largest defeat ever in UK parliamentary history. The second vote was also a massive defeat.

*I know what that and DUP stands for.

You do realise that if all the opposition, plus the DUP vote against something, then it's impossible for the Conservatives to pass it, even if 100% of them vote in favour? The Tories have a majority of just one with DUP support: without DUP support they are a minority.

 

[ceptimus]

Now it looks like a near-certainty that we will be served grass clippings.

No it doesn't. In your analogy, the grass clippings are just what remainers, fed on a diet of project fear, believe they'll be getting.

They need to wait and see what actually arrives on the table. It's no good storming out of the restaurant before the meal has even been served.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

You can tell by the senseless ramblings of Brexiteers and their willingness to defend absolutely anything that it has long since ceased to be about what they voted for (if they ever knew in the first place) and has simply become about winning now. They'd rather burn down the house than admit that moving was a bad idea even if it means everyone ends up on the streets.

They are idiots and vandals. Every single one of them. Not a coherent idea or thought between them. From top to bottom.

 

[Garrison]

No it doesn't. In your analogy, the grass clippings are just what remainers, fed on a diet of project fear, believe they'll be getting.

They need to wait and see what actually arrives on the table. It's no good storming out of the restaurant before the meal has even been served.

Except that's exactly what you are in favour of, No Deal is the equivalent of storming out and going hungry because you were offered a hamburger instead of steak, oh and it turned out the restaurant expects you to pay for your food.

 

[Mr Fied]

You do realise that if all the opposition, plus the DUP vote against something, then it's impossible for the Conservatives to pass it, even if 100% of them vote in favour? The Tories have a majority of just one with DUP support: without DUP support they are a minority.

You keep coming out with this, but it doesn't get away from the fact that not every Tory MP (who got elected on their party's leave mandate) or every DUP MP, (who sold their soul to be part of the government) voted to back the leave deals.

Forget about the opposition and what they voted for, it is a fact that the parties who supported leave could not get all their MP's to back a leave deal, which just goes to strengthen the view that there are more splits in the Brexit camp than the remain camp.

If the government had lost every vote by one or two votes then you would have a point that opposition MP's had blocked Brexit, but they suffered some of the biggest defeats ever by any government. So please stop putting the blame on remain supporting MP's,who at least voted true to their conscience.

 

[jimbob]

You can tell by the senseless ramblings of Brexiteers and their willingness to defend absolutely anything that it has long since ceased to be about what they voted for (if they ever knew in the first place) and has simply become about winning now. They'd rather burn down the house than admit that moving was a bad idea even if it means everyone ends up on the streets.

They are idiots and vandals. Every single one of them. Not a coherent idea or thought between them. From top to bottom.

History will not be kind to those who drove leaving the EU, with no plan/multiple plans they could not agree on.

Yes, I was thinking along similar lines about those like Gove who have pointed out how bad a no-deal would be, and then compromised just to get a sniff of power.

I get the point about it being better a general in Hell, than a corporal in Heaven, but I really don't see what's so good about being a lieutenant in Hell, where you have to tie yourself to someone who is going to be judged very harshly within five years.

Unless his goal is to force a caretaker government to be formed, and then have an election before Brexit happens.

 

[catsmate]

That "clean break" isn't what voters were promised at the referendum.

You mean when BoJo and cronies said:

Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the Single Market.

There is no reason why the UK’s only land border should be any less open after Brexit than it is today.

Nor is there any prospect of security checks returning to the border. The common travel area between the UK and Ireland pre-dates our EU membership and will outlast it. The unique status Irish citizens are accorded in the UK predates EU membership and will outlast it. There is no reason why the UK’s only land border should be any less open after Brexit than it is today.

There will continue to be free trade and access to the single market

No it doesn't work like that. A vote is either won or lost.
<snippage of nonsense contradicting this initial truth>

 

[catsmate]

It's a damn sight closer to what they were promised than not leaving at all would be.

You're lying again.

Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the Single Market.

There is no reason why the UK’s only land border should be any less open after Brexit than it is today.

Nor is there any prospect of security checks returning to the border. The common travel area between the UK and Ireland pre-dates our EU membership and will outlast it. The unique status Irish citizens are accorded in the UK predates EU membership and will outlast it. There is no reason why the UK’s only land border should be any less open after Brexit than it is today.

There will continue to be free trade and access to the single market

I assume you'll next attempt to blame the horrid EU for noting making the Brexiteers lies some true?

 

[catsmate]

You do realise that if all the opposition, plus the DUP vote against something, then it's impossible for the Conservatives to pass it, even if 100% of them vote in favour? The Tories have a majority of just one with DUP support: without DUP support they are a minority.

And this staggeringly irrelevant point means......?

 

[Vixen]

The Leave campaign repeatedly assured the British people that, following Brexit, the UK would remain in a customs union with the EU and would remain in the EEA. The Leave campaign repeatedly pooh-poohed the idea that the UK could leave with no deal in place as Project Fear nonsense.

Going back to the dinner analogy, we were told repeatedly that if we would vote for dinner we would be getting steak and that we would definitely not be getting grass clippings. Now it looks like a near-certainty that we will be served grass clippings. Isn't it reasonable to ask people again whether they want dinner ?

If grass clippings are as popular as you're claiming, the vote to confirm that people want grass clippings for dinner should be a formality.

At least grass clippings are better in respect of climate change than beef.

 

[Vixen]

Yes, I was thinking along similar lines about those like Gove who have pointed out how bad a no-deal would be, and then compromised just to get a sniff of power.

I get the point about it being better a general in Hell, than a corporal in Heaven, but I really don't see what's so good about being a lieutenant in Hell, where you have to tie yourself to someone who is going to be judged very harshly within five years.

Unless his goal is to force a caretaker government to be formed, and then have an election before Brexit happens.

I think Corporal Jones is the correct analogy.

 

[Lothian]

What the referendum ballot paper actually said:

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

Remain a member of the European Union [ ]

Leave the European Union [ ]
​

Glad you understand that. Perhaps you could point out how leaving the EU but remaining in the customs union does not fall within 'leave the EU' . The ERG voted against that option. If they voted for the motion, it would have carried and we would now be out.

 

[Arcade22]

I’ve just seen Gove on the telly, being asked what the government would do if legislation preventing a no-deal Brexit got through parliament:

Marr: “If this legislation goes through both Houses of Parliament, does the government abide by it?”
Gove: “Let’s see what the legislation says.”
Marr: “But surely the answer has to be ‘yes’, it’s the law!”
Gove: “Let’s see what the legislation says, you’re asking me about a pig in a poke.”

The party of law and order.

 

[Nessie]

You do realise that if all the opposition, plus the DUP vote against something, then it's impossible for the Conservatives to pass it, even if 100% of them vote in favour? The Tories have a majority of just one with DUP support: without DUP support they are a minority.

You do realise that May's deal failed to pass in part because Tory leavers voted against it.

It clearly pisses you off that Tory leavers carry some of the responsibility.

You want them to be blameless.

 

[Mojo]

The party of law and order.

He was also talking about Brexit at the end of October, whatever it is, as being “the light at the end of the tunnel”. Meanwhile, anyone with any sense is suggesting that it might be a good idea to get out of the way of the train.

 

[Nessie]

Except that's exactly what you are in favour of, No Deal is the equivalent of storming out and going hungry because you were offered a hamburger instead of steak, oh and it turned out the restaurant expects you to pay for your food.

I do not think anyone will go hungry. The issue is of shortages of fresh food that imported out of season and it cannot be stored, primarily because the UK's warehouses are pretty much full, of food.

 

[GlennB]

Anyhoo ... now an improbably expensive advertising campaign kicks off, starting today, preparing Brits for a 31st Oct hard brexit *

"One leading advertising industry source pointed out that this [£100M] figure was substantially higher than the amount spent on traditional advertising in the UK by major consumer brands such as Amazon, Tesco and Asda in the whole of 2018."

I wonder if there will be outright lies?

* Silly me, but I thought Parliament had a say in such things.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

You do realise that if all the opposition, plus the DUP vote against something, then it's impossible for the Conservatives to pass it, even if 100% of them vote in favour? The Tories have a majority of just one with DUP support: without DUP support they are a minority.

If anyone on this thread is interested in facts (obviously not those who support Brexit) they can look at the maths online easily.

The 3rd vote was defeated by 58 votes. There were 34 Tory votes against.

Had all the Tories voted in favour it would have passed easily.

The time before that the defeat was by 149 votes..... and there were 75 Tories against. So again had the Tories voted in favour it would have passed.

The first time the defeat was by 230 with 115 Tories against. So it would have been tied.

The Tory ERG stopped the UK leaving Europe months ago.

Can we stop LYING about it now?