Cont: Brexit: Now What? Magic 8 Ball's up

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ceptimus said:
No you're wrong again. You didn't read my post - I mentioned the DUP. The DUP were never going to vote for the deal - they made that very clear. So providing the official opposition were solid, how the Tory brexiters voted made no difference.

If Labour were so set against a no-deal, then they could have had a remain-friendly deal (Mrs May's) very easily back in February or whenever the first vote on May's deal was held. All the Labour party had to do was vote for the deal - they didn't even need the SNP or other opposition parties. It would have prevented a no-deal, and likely also prevented Boris becoming PM.
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Ken Clarke's two motions (customs union) and Nick Boles' second ( common market 2) in the indicative votes would have passed with brexiter support.

Both would have respected the referendum result. We would have been out by now if only the Brexiteers supported the votes on all motions implementing the referendum.
 
Mr Fied said:
Did every Tory MP vote for any deal offered? No.

Until they get their act together don't try to blame anyone else for this complete cock up the useless ****s have created.

They have no one to blame but themselves, they created the mess and haven't got a clue how to get out of it without looking like the complete and utterly incompetent fools we know they are.
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I'm not blaming anyone else. I'm just correcting the lie that it is Tory brexiters who are responsible for voting down the deal. They couldn't hope to have done that - they just don't have the numbers - it was the opposition parties that repeatedly voted down the deal - the brexiters just swelled what would have been a majority vote even without them.

Anyway, as a Brexiter, I am very happy with the current situation. If Labour and other opposition fools hadn't repeatedly voted against the deal, we'd now be saddled with May's remainer-friendly deal. Under Boris we still have a chance of getting a proper clean break brexit, although the anti-democratic remoaner MPs are still trying their best to thwart it.
 
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Lothian said:
Ken Clarke's two motions (customs union) and Nick Boles' second ( common market 2) in the indicative votes would have passed with brexiter support.

Both would have respected the referendum result. We would have been out by now if only the Brexiteers supported the votes on all motions implementing the referendum.
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Why on earth would Brexiters ever vote for either of those BRINO ideas? They were even more remain than May's terrible deal.
 
ceptimus said:
Why on earth would Brexiters ever vote for either of those BRINO ideas? They were even more remain than May's terrible deal.
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Would you care to explain why neither of those would have satisfied the referendum mandate?

ETA: you’ll need to explain exactly what the referendum provided a mandate for, and why “BRINO” wasn’t it.
 
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ceptimus said:
Why on earth would Brexiters ever vote for either of those BRINO ideas? They were even more remain than May's terrible deal.
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Vote leave promised we would be part of the free trade area from Iceland to the Russian border.

Those two motions delivered on the Vote Leave promise. Vote leave won. Brexiteers have failed the Vote Leave supporters
 
ceptimus said:
Why on earth would Brexiters ever vote for either of those BRINO ideas? They were even more remain than May's terrible deal.
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The fact that you as a brexiteer do not support us leaving the EU on a deal which meets the question on the ballot paper is exceedingly worrying. It throws doubt on the credibility of the vote.
If you don't support 2 referendum compliant leaving deals how can we guarantee that any other leaving deal will be supported by all those voting leave.

You have explained perfectly why another referendum on the actual deal is needed. Thank you.
 
ceptimus said:
I'm not blaming anyone else.
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It's not a lie.
:rolleyes:

ceptimus said:
Why on earth would Brexiters ever vote for either of those BRINO ideas? They were even more remain than May's terrible deal.
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Hmm...
Daniel Hannan said:
Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the Single Market.
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Theresa Villiers said:
There is no reason why the UK’s only land border should be any less open after Brexit than it is today.
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Theresa Villiers said:
Nor is there any prospect of security checks returning to the border. The common travel area between the UK and Ireland pre-dates our EU membership and will outlast it. The unique status Irish citizens are accorded in the UK predates EU membership and will outlast it. There is no reason why the UK’s only land border should be any less open after Brexit than it is today.
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Boris Johnson said:
There will continue to be free trade and access to the single market
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Look, all those promises could have been true, if only everyone who thinks Brexit is a monumental error just ignored their own moral compass and the EU just stabbed all of its other members in the back in order to give the UK its cake and let it eat it too.

And clearly that such things not happened is in no way the fault of a Brexit camp that is utterly unable to define what it wants.
 
It's quite perverse that a brexiteer would accuse remainers of not knowing or saying what they want, given the fact that brexiteers have so completely changed their position from "no worries, we'll get the best deal" to "no deal is better than any deal, so long as we leave".

I suppose it's a sign of the times that such a massive heap of dishonesty doesn't get immediately punished. What it does show above all is that the motivation for brexit isn't what the brexiteers tell us, but rather what we've all sussed out by now: getting rid of the furriners.
 
uke2se said:
It's quite perverse that a brexiteer would accuse remainers of not knowing or saying what they want, given the fact that brexiteers have so completely changed their position from "no worries, we'll get the best deal" to "no deal is better than any deal, so long as we leave".

I suppose it's a sign of the times that such a massive heap of dishonesty doesn't get immediately punished. What it does show above all is that the motivation for brexit isn't what the brexiteers tell us, but rather what we've all sussed out by now: getting rid of the furriners.
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Yup.
 
ceptimus said:
I'm not blaming anyone else. I'm just correcting the lie that it is Tory brexiters who are responsible for voting down the deal. They couldn't hope to have done that - they just don't have the numbers - it was the opposition parties that repeatedly voted down the deal - the brexiters just swelled what would have been a majority vote even without them.

....
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By swelling the vote, the Tory brexiteers are partly responsible for voting down May's deal.

That the Conservative Party is so split over Europe is the root cause of Brexit and the mess it has been ever since.
 
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