Cont: Brexit: Now What? Magic 8 Ball's up

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ceptimus said:
No you're wrong again. You didn't read my post - I mentioned the DUP. The DUP were never going to vote for the deal - they made that very clear. So providing the official opposition were solid, how the Tory brexiters voted made no difference.

If Labour were so set against a no-deal, then they could have had a remain-friendly deal (Mrs May's) very easily back in February or whenever the first vote on May's deal was held. All the Labour party had to do was vote for the deal - they didn't even need the SNP or other opposition parties. It would have prevented a no-deal, and likely also prevented Boris becoming PM.
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Again the tories were in power because they could make a majority, that majority was very slim so when the likes of Mog voted against leaving the UK we didn't leave. The leavers therefore prevented the UK leaving the EU. It is now a matter of historic record that the leavers in the Tory party prevented the UK from leaving.
 
If around 48 % voted to remain, which is a clear-cut choice, and the leave vote is split into groups wanting a Norway-type deal, a Canada-type deal, a no deal, etc., can we really say the people voted to leave? This always bugged me. All these outcomes are so different that the leaving part almost seems incidental.
 
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Olmstead said:
If around 48 % voted to remain, which is a clear-cut choice, and the leave vote is split into groups wanting a Norway-type deal, a Canada-type deal, a no deal, etc., can we really say the people voted to leave? This always bugged me. All these outcomes are so different that the leaving part almost seems incidental.
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Pretty much.

If the referendum had been:

A. Remain
or
B. Leave ... and this is what leave will look like

then Remain would have won by a street. Even devoted leavers, in certain fields, are now terrified of a hard brexit.
 
Olmstead said:
If around 48 % voted to remain, which is a clear-cut choice, and the leave vote is split into groups wanting a Norway-type deal, a Canada-type deal, a no deal, etc., can we really say the people voted to leave? This always bugged me. All these outcomes are so different that the leaving part almost seems incidental.
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There's a reason the Leave campaign cracked down hard on any attempt to define the type of Brexit they wanted. It was the only way they were able to keep all the factions together.
 
ceptimus said:
I'm not blaming anyone else. I'm just correcting the lie that it is Tory brexiters who are responsible for voting down the deal. They couldn't hope to have done that - they just don't have the numbers - it was the opposition parties that repeatedly voted down the deal - the brexiters just swelled what would have been a majority vote even without them.

Anyway, as a Brexiter, I am very happy with the current situation. If Labour and other opposition fools hadn't repeatedly voted against the deal, we'd now be saddled with May's remainer-friendly deal. Under Boris we still have a chance of getting a proper clean break brexit, although the anti-democratic remoaner MPs are still trying their best to thwart it.
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That "clean break" isn't what voters were promised at the referendum.
 
Nessie said:
By swelling the vote, the Tory brexiteers are partly responsible for voting down May's deal.
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No it doesn't work like that. A vote is either won or lost.

Once again, the way the ERG* voted on May's deal made no difference to the outcome. May's deal was repeatedly defeated by the opposition parties working in alliance with the DUP*. The ERG* votes meant May's deal was defeated by a bigger margin, but a defeat is a defeat, whether by one vote or four hundred. If the entirety of the ERG* had voted for May's deal every time, it would still have been defeated on each occasion.

*ERG = European Research Group (Jacob Rees-Mogg and Co.)
*DUP = Democratic Unionist Party (Northern Irish party, normally supporting the government - but not on May's deal)
 
ceptimus said:
It's a damn sight closer to what they were promised than not leaving at all would be.
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"Do you vote for dinner or no dinner?"

"Dinner!"

"Here's a pile of grass clippings. It's closer to dinner than no dinner. Bon appetit!"
 
I'm still baffled that people are seriously suggesting a "clean break" with 40+% of the current UK export market would be a good idea.

Especially since the EU has made it quite clear, that any future trade talks will hinge on the contents of the withdrawal agreement being implemented.
 
KDLarsen said:
I'm still baffled that people are seriously suggesting a "clean break" with 40+% of the current UK export market would be a good idea.

Especially since the EU has made it quite clear, that any future trade talks will hinge on the contents of the withdrawal agreement being implemented.
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It's closer to 80% because the UK's current trade deals are EU deals. Only a few countries and blocs have agreed to roll these over, the rest are waiting.
 
GlennB said:
"Do you vote for dinner or no dinner - I can't tell you exactly what kind of steak it will be but I can assure you that it won't be a pile of grass clippings? "

"Dinner!"

"Here's a pile of grass clippings. It's closer to dinner than no dinner. Bon appetit!"
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FTFY :p
 
I’ve just seen Gove on the telly, being asked what the government would do if legislation preventing a no-deal Brexit got through parliament:

Marr: “If this legislation goes through both Houses of Parliament, does the government abide by it?”
Gove: “Let’s see what the legislation says.”
Marr: “But surely the answer has to be ‘yes’, it’s the law!”
Gove: “Let’s see what the legislation says, you’re asking me about a pig in a poke.”
 
GlennB said:
"Do you vote for dinner or no dinner?"

"Dinner!"

"Here's a pile of grass clippings. It's closer to dinner than no dinner. Bon appetit!"
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What the referendum ballot paper actually said:

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

Remain a member of the European Union [ ]

Leave the European Union [ ]
​

What the remainers on International Skeptics Forum believe it said:

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

Remain a member of the European Union [ ]

Remain a member of the European Union [ ]
​
 
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ceptimus said:
**Snipped a bunch of tosh that completely disregards the point made over and over again.
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Like I said before, we all know that you don't believe the crap you're spouting, primarily because it's ******* stupid, so why not do us all a favor and cut the crap? You're acting for no audience here. If you want to put on a spectacle of lies, go out in the street and see if you can find a space not already occupied by a weirdo.
 
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ceptimus said:
What the referendum ballot paper actually said:

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

Remain a member of the European Union [ ]

Leave the European Union [ ]
​

<snipped the usual right wing garbage>
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The Leave campaign repeatedly assured the British people that, following Brexit, the UK would remain in a customs union with the EU and would remain in the EEA. The Leave campaign repeatedly pooh-poohed the idea that the UK could leave with no deal in place as Project Fear nonsense.

Going back to the dinner analogy, we were told repeatedly that if we would vote for dinner we would be getting steak and that we would definitely not be getting grass clippings. Now it looks like a near-certainty that we will be served grass clippings. Isn't it reasonable to ask people again whether they want dinner ?

If grass clippings are as popular as you're claiming, the vote to confirm that people want grass clippings for dinner should be a formality.
 
ceptimus said:
No it doesn't work like that. A vote is either won or lost.

Once again, the way the ERG* voted on May's deal made no difference to the outcome. May's deal was repeatedly defeated by the opposition parties working in alliance with the DUP*. The ERG* votes meant May's deal was defeated by a bigger margin, but a defeat is a defeat, whether by one vote or four hundred. If the entirety of the ERG* had voted for May's deal every time, it would still have been defeated on each occasion.

*ERG = European Research Group (Jacob Rees-Mogg and Co.)
*DUP = Democratic Unionist Party (Northern Irish party, normally supporting the government - but not on May's deal)
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the DUP are leavers too. So the DUP and ERG leavers voted not to leave
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
No it isnt.
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Exactly, the leavers promised continued trade with the EU on terms equal to or better than those on offer as members of the EU. Remaining in the EU is far closer to that goal than the No Deal Brexit that BoJo and others denounced as 'project fear' during the referendum campaign and are now desperate to achieve.
 
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