What we mean when we talk about racism

[JoeMorgue]

13 is old enough to understand that vague concept of racism.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I want to deal with racism but how? That's the golden question.

Stop "whatabout this one time racism was used wrongly!" every discussion about it would be a nice start.

You're in the burn ward demanding the burn patients talk about cases of frostbite. Stop it.

 

[BrooklynBaby]

Of course we most likely won't hear from you again, but please define "The Racism Hoax" for us, as you understand it.

Here you go:


https://legalinsurrection.com/2019/...ing-of-trump-from-russia-collusion-to-racism/

 

[jimbob]

13 is old enough to understand that vague concept of racism.

Exactly. In the UK, kids learn about the Holocaust before they leave primary school, and learning about racism is inherent to that.

 

[psionl0]

The highlighted part?

Really?

Really. She meant to insult the player but we don't know if she was aware of any cultural sensitivity about the word.

 

[jimbob]

Cultural sensitivity?

One of the oldest racist tropes in the world?

 

[xjx388]

13 is old enough to understand that vague concept of racism.

Yes, it is. It's also still young enough that it could go either way. According to her mother, she had turned 13 just 5 days earlier. The girl did later apologize to Goodes and told news stations that she did not mean it in a racial way. Goodes himself was quoted as saying: "I've got no doubt in my mind she's got no idea what she was calling me last night."

 

[jimbob]

Really. She meant to insult the player but we don't know if she was aware of any cultural sensitivity about the word.

Racism is behind it, no doubt. The question is whether or not the 13 year old girl really understood that. If she was just following the crowd, chanting what they were chanting without grasping the racially charged elements then her particular intentions may have just been to heckle an opposing player. She's a kid even tweens/teens can be surprisingly naive.

Have either of you actually met any thirteen year olds?

 

[JoeMorgue]

Yes, it is. It's also still young enough that it could go either way. According to her mother, she had turned 13 just 5 days earlier. The girl did later apologize to Goodes and told news stations that she did not mean it in a racial way. Goodes himself was quoted as saying: "I've got no doubt in my mind she's got no idea what she was calling me last night."

*Sighs* Fine, I don't care. What are trying to prove? One innocent girl got caught up in a racist screaming mob? So? And? Your point?

Again... stop screaming "But whatabout frostbite!" at burn victims.

 

[jimbob]

Here's the original post about Goode.

Aboriginal AFL player Adam Goode had a way of doing outrageous things on the football field such as doing a "war" dance and pretending to throw spears at the crowd when he kicked a goal. In one infamous incident, he singled out a 13 year old female spectator for yelling out "monkey" (an offensive term for Aboriginals) when his team ran out on to the field.

Needless to say, these actions didn't make him very popular with the spectators who booed him every time he touched the football. Ultimately this hostility from the crowds saw him retire from AFL football.

In the ensuing public discussions, Goode was never described as "racist" (though many had other nasty words to describe him). However, the acts of booing saw the crowds constantly labeled as "racist".

Never having heard of him before I was a bit confused. I can't see why he ought to have been accused of being racist, when you haven't described any racist behaviour that he is supposed to have done. In fact, the only racist behaviour here is the girl who called him a "monkey".

Yes and even then, there is no reason to believe that the young girl even knew that the term was offensive.

However, that was all background. The main point was that the reaction to the crowds booing was an illustration of what theprestige claimed was a definition of racism?

Come back to the highlighted part.

Lots of the crowd were making racist chants at Goodes, but one person he singled out, who later apologised to him, was also making a racist chant?

 

[xjx388]

Stop "whatabout this one time racism was used wrongly!" every discussion about it would be a nice start.

You're in the burn ward demanding the burn patients talk about cases of frostbite. Stop it.

Why? Part of the discussion is acknowledging the fact that not everything bad done to minorities/POC is racially motivated. If we aren't allowed to point out when something that has been deemed racist is not actually racist, then "the race card" has chilling effects.

 

[xjx388]

*Sighs* Fine, I don't care. What are trying to prove? One innocent girl got caught up in a racist screaming mob? So? And? Your point?

Again... stop screaming "But whatabout frostbite!" at burn victims.

My point is that not everything labelled as racist is indeed racist and that part of solving racism is to stop using the race card when it isn't warranted.

 

[jimbob]

Why? Part of the discussion is acknowledging the fact that not everything bad done to minorities/POC is racially motivated. If we aren't allowed to point out when something that has been deemed racist is not actually racist, then "the race card" has chilling effects.

Except we haven't established that at all. All we have is a girl who was embarrassed into apologising for making racist chants. She might have been sincere in her apology - I hope she was; but regardless, even she accepted that she had been making racist chants.

 

[psionl0]

Come back to the highlighted part.

Why? It is just a strawman. I never said that he ought to be considered racist.

I was just pointing out that any act or comment can be twisted to be "racist" if anybody has a mind to.

 

[xjx388]

Except we haven't established that at all. All we have is a girl who was embarrassed into apologising for making racist chants. She might have been sincere in her apology - I hope she was; but regardless, even she accepted that she had been making racist chants.

Even Goodes has said that he didn’t think the girl knew what she was saying. In any case, regardless of what happened in this particular incident, the point remains. I think it’s an important point.

 

[pgwenthold]

Even Goodes has said that he didn’t think the girl knew what she was saying. In any case, regardless of what happened in this particular incident, the point remains. I think it’s an important point.

I'm really having a hard time grasping this.

The claim is that, he was not getting racist insults hurled at him because the girl who used a racist insult didn't know it was racist, and was just repeating what she heard others say to him?

 

[jimbob]

I'm really having a hard time grasping this.

The claim is that, he was not getting racist insults hurled at him because the girl who used a racist insult didn't know it was racist, and was just repeating what she heard others say to him?

No, I think it is that some of the racist insults were only racist because of the cultural context that a thirteen year old couldn't understand, so that means that sometimes racist insults aren't actually intended to be racist, just insults that coincidentally are only said to dark-skinned minorities. Therefore it doesn't help to label them as racially motivated.

Although I might be getting confused.

 

[wareyin]

I'm really having a hard time grasping this.

The claim is that, he was not getting racist insults hurled at him because the girl who used a racist insult didn't know it was racist, and was just repeating what she heard others say to him?

No, I think it is that some of the racist insults were only racist because of the cultural context that a thirteen year old couldn't understand, so that means that sometimes racist insults aren't actually intended to be racist, just insults that coincidentally are only said to dark-skinned minorities. Therefore it doesn't help to label them as racially motivated.

Although I might be getting confused.

What you guys aren't getting is that this example of a crowd shouting racist insults at a minority is a good example of people who aren't racist being labeled racist just for disagreeing with a person of a different skin color. Somehow.

Yes and even then, there is no reason to believe that the young girl even knew that the term was offensive.

However, that was all background. The main point was that the reaction to the crowds booing was an illustration of what theprestige claimed was a definition of racism?

 

[jimbob]

yup, me neither

 

[wareyin]

Uh let's see . . .

Every baseball game at Fenway; I've been to about 20 or so. Almost every opposing player gets an earful, some of it colorful and amusing. IIRC, there have been a few minorities on opposing teams from time to time; but, never have I heard the N-Word being used or any other racial epitaph.

As a big fan of the Vegas Golden Knights, I've seen them play away games in Dallas, Boston and Atlanta. Malcom Subban was their goalie for at least a couple of those and he is one of the few black players in the NHL along with his two brothers. His brother PK got some racial heat at times, especially on social media from Bruins fans after PK scored the game winning goal at a playoff game. Yet I heard not one racially charged taunt at any of those games.

I've been to countless San Antonio Spurs, Miami Dolphins and San Diego Padres games all over the country. I share season tickets with a cousin in Houston for the Astros. I've visited many many MLB stadiums on my quest to visit them all. I'm a huge live sports fan. If I'm in a city and there is a professional sports event happening, I'm there. Not once have I heard a racial taunt directed at a player on the field/court/ice. I've definitely heard some colorful taunts. I've heard some taunts about player's wives and mothers. I've witnessed some really heated taunting between players and fans at a minor league hockey game. I've even heard one guy at Fenway taunt one of their own players for being a worthless bum! But not one racially charged taunt.

It happens and that is a terrible thing, but it isn't "virtually always." Such exaggerations diminish your argument.

And yet, as with PK Subban, Colin Kaepernick, Mike Tomlin, and many, many others, there is a lot of racial invectives in the booing. I'll take your word for it that you've never heard it, but it's nowhere near as rare as you are pretending. When you have a stadium full of drunken sports fans booing a minority player, I'd bet a large sum of money that some of them are yelling racial slurs. When I say "virtually always" I mean that virtually always some of the crowd is yelling it, not that virtually every person booing is doing so with racial insults, in case this is where we are getting our signals crossed.