Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
Hellmann doesn't count. He was brutally expunged and then booted into 'retirement'.
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The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 29
- Thread starter Bill Williams
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Hellmann doesn't count. He was brutally expunged and then booted into 'retirement'.
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
I bet you are the type of person who, if given a parking ticket, blames the traffic warden.
I was just parking here in this space after driving around the block several times. I had no choice but to nip in. Sure, there's a sign that says, 'No Parking' but hey everybody else is doing it. Bloody bastard.
Not much different from:
'Hey I was just acting out my written fantasies of giving a chick a razor to her left jaw. So we have this stupid guy who isn't impressed by my wiggling my hips at him - always worked with the drug dealers and the Italian creep with the Audi - doesn't he know I'm an American brat and I'll do whatever I like. So **** off, Mignini. Frickin' bastard.'
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
We already have the US press making martyrs out of the two diddums.
LondonJohn
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"Brutally expunged" LMAO
Have you thought about applying that breathless phraseology to..... let's see.....
MASSEI?
CRINI?
NENCINI?
Cos if you haven't, I've got news for you
LondonJohn
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"Brutally expunged" LMAO
Have you thought about applying that breathless phraseology to..... let's see.....
MASSEI?
CRINI?
NENCINI?
Cos if you haven't, I've got news for you
(I meant Chieffi obv, not Crini)
TruthCalls
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In other words, you were wrong and rather than admit it, you come up with this dreadful gibberish.
Bill Williams
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You have repeated this myth dozens of times. You are immune to the dozens of rebuttals which have been provided.
When a judge concludes what you approve of, you observe their objectivity and commitment to the fact(oid)s. You accuse the rest of us of disrespecting Italian institutions.
When judges conclude what you disapprove of, you accuse those members of those Institutions of being "bent", fraudulent, Masonic influenced, Mafia-corrupt..... where they are then forced into retirement on the basis of ONE verdict they arrived at (which if true speaks of judicial interference with the independence of the court, which means you're conceding that YOUR judges are corrupt).
This analysis provided so that even you can see why no one takes you seriously.
Back to lurking.
TruthCalls
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Would you care to cite evidence to support such a claim. I've been following the story via US media reports and I've seen no such thing. At most, an issue has been made of Natale Hjorth being blindfolded, which the police have said was an illegal act, but very little has been said about it.
Bill Williams
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Vixen said:
Vixen doesn't contribute to threads because she has evidence. She contributes because she wants to chuck weasel words into a conversation, weasel words like "diddums".
Back to lurking.
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
Now what was it we were saying upthread about making up scenarios and fervent imagination?
Bet you are the type of person who, despite being given concrete evidence you are wrong, just doubles and triples down instead of admitting you were wrong.
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Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
What US press are you looking at? It's certainly not the press I'm seeing here.
As previously stated, the only criticism of the case so far has been one of the suspects being ILLEGALLY blindfolded, an act the police themselves have condemned. Nowhere has there been any attempt to make "martyrs" of the two.
You have already been asked to provide evidence of your claim which should be easy if it exists. That you have not, and will not, speaks volumes. This is just another classic example of you making unfounded and false claims based on nothing.
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
Hellmann counts as much as the overturned Massei and Nencini decisions. In fact, Cassation ended up agreeing with Hellmann's verdict of acquittal while stating that Massei and Nencini should never have convicted in the first place based on the evidence. Wow. That must have stung!
As for Hellmann being "booted into 'retirement', you have (unsurprisingly) misrepresented the facts. No one 'booted' Hellmann. He chose to retire because some of his fellow judiciary behaved like snot nosed babies because they didn't like his verdict. A verdict, may I remind you, that was later proved correct by the Supreme Court of Italy. I'd say Hellmann got the last laugh on that one.
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Bill Williams
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But on the bright side, Vixen did get to use the word "diddums" in a sentence. "Diddums" is, apparently, the key to understanding how the Italian criminal system works.
BTL.
LondonJohn
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Yeah... Vixen's selective memory curiously always manages to forget the only two judicial decisions in this case which actually count as of August 2019: The Marasca Supreme Court verdict in respect of Knox's/Sollecito's murder-related charges, and the ECHR adjudication in respect of Knox's criminal slander "conviction". Funny, that
Plus, as you point out above, if one goes through the court verdicts which were overturned or quashed in this case, in fact the ONLY one which could be said to have ongoing resonance and relevance is Hellmann. His court can also take the credit for ordering an independent-expert review of the forensic evidence in this case - a review which (correctly) gave an utterly damning verdict on the work of "world class" Stefanoni and pretty much everyone else involved in the collection, processing, transportation and analysis of forensic material.
The Conti/Vecchiotti Report still contributes to the canon of evidence in this case (Vixen also "forgets" that it's only the verdicts and the courts' reasoning behind those verdicts which were struck out - the evidence/testimony itself from each of those trials still stands). And that report clearly must have (correctly, again) played its part in the reasoning and verdict of the Marasca SC panel.
In fact, if any verdicts in this sorry trials process can be said to have been "brutally expunged", it's those of the Massei and Nencini courts. Both of those trials were outrageously unlawful in a whole smorgasbord of ways; they were both a disgrace, and the Marasca SC verdict correctly called them out appropriately. Furthermore, the failure of both those courts to properly question the circumstances of Knox's "criminal slander" of Lumumba, and the shocking decision by Massei to allow that charge to be tried alongside the murder-related charges, now look hideous in the light of the ECHR adjudication.
So if any judges should hang their heads in shame over this botched trial process, it's most definitely Massei and Nencini. And, for that matter, Chieffi. Not Hellmann, by any means (save for his role in the Knox criminal slander "conviction").
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
(LJ #1794)
"Forgets" much in the same way that Stefanoni "forgot" to mention all the negative TMB tests! But Stefanoni didn't 'forget' to always refer to them as 'luminol revealed' samples. Gee...I wonder why that was? It's rather like referring to the 'bloody knife' at a murder trial that tested negative for the victim's blood/DNA but positive for deer blood and forgetting to mention that piece of info.
Yeah... Vixen's selective memory curiously always manages to forget the only two judicial decisions in this case which actually count as of August 2019: The Marasca Supreme Court verdict in respect of Knox's/Sollecito's murder-related charges, and the ECHR adjudication in respect of Knox's criminal slander "conviction". Funny, that
Plus, as you point out above, if one goes through the court verdicts which were overturned or quashed in this case, in fact the ONLY one which could be said to have ongoing resonance and relevance is Hellmann. His court can also take the credit for ordering an independent-expert review of the forensic evidence in this case - a review which (correctly) gave an utterly damning verdict on the work of "world class" Stefanoni and pretty much everyone else involved in the collection, processing, transportation and analysis of forensic material.
The Conti/Vecchiotti Report still contributes to the canon of evidence in this case (Vixen also "forgets" that it's only the verdicts and the courts' reasoning behind those verdicts which were struck out - the evidence/testimony itself from each of those trials still stands). And that report clearly must have (correctly, again) played its part in the reasoning and verdict of the Marasca SC panel.
In fact, if any verdicts in this sorry trials process can be said to have been "brutally expunged", it's those of the Massei and Nencini courts. Both of those trials were outrageously unlawful in a whole smorgasbord of ways; they were both a disgrace, and the Marasca SC verdict correctly called them out appropriately. Furthermore, the failure of both those courts to properly question the circumstances of Knox's "criminal slander" of Lumumba, and the shocking decision by Massei to allow that charge to be tried alongside the murder-related charges, now look hideous in the light of the ECHR adjudication.
So if any judges should hang their heads in shame over this botched trial process, it's most definitely Massei and Nencini. And, for that matter, Chieffi. Not Hellmann, by any means (save for his role in the Knox criminal slander "conviction").
I am going to agree with you but with some slight clarifications to expand on the significance of legal records, including that of overturned or reversed verdicts and motivation reports, for Council of Europe states such as Italy.
1. The Marasca CSC Panel verdict and motivation report and the ECHR judgment in Knox v. Italy are the only legally binding court judgments in this case. Italy is obligated, under its treaty of membership in the Council of Europe, to adhere to the ECHR judgment Knox v. Italy and to interpret any previous judgment, including that of the Marasca CSC Panel, to conform to the ECHR judgment in Knox v. Italy.
2. While verdicts and motivation reports that are overturned or reversed lose their operative effects, they are not "expunged"*. They are preserved in the legal record. In fact, such verdicts and motivation reports, as well as the trial record of testimony and judicial actions, may include or be in themselves evidence that the ECHR considers in evaluating an alleged violation of an applicant's rights. For example, in Knox v. Italy, the ECHR considered the denial by the Massei court of the request by Knox's lawyer to have her statement regarding mistreatment during the Nov. 5/6 interrogation sent to a prosecutor as one element of the evidence of Italy's repeated violation of Convention Article 3, procedural limb.
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*Expunge {definition} To destroy; blot out; obliterate; erase; efface designedly; strike out wholly. The act of physically destroying information—including criminal records—in files, computers, or other depositories.
Source: https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/expunge
Overturned or reversed verdicts and motivation reports remain as physical records, so they are not "expunged".
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
Good points, Numbers. Vixen's armchair lawyer claim that Hellmann was "brutally expunged" is yet another factoid pulled from the black hole from which most of her 'facts' originate.
There was also the effort to call the rock thrown through the window of the cottage a "boulder", an attempt to use a geological definition based on the diameter of a rock, apparently in an attempt to make the thrown rock seem impossibly big to be thrown.
Here's some information on the geological definition of "boulder":
"In geology, a boulder is a rock fragment with size greater than 25.6 centimetres (10.1 in) in diameter.* Smaller pieces are called cobbles and pebbles. While a boulder may be small enough to move or roll manually, others are extremely massive. In common usage, a boulder is too large for a person to move. Smaller boulders are usually just called rocks or stones. ...."
*Neuendorf, K.K.E.; Mehl, Jr., J.P.; Jackson, J.A. (editors) (2005). Glossary of Geology (5th edition). Alexandria, Virginia: American Geological Institute. p. 79. ISBN 978-0922152896
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boulder
Here are some other definitions of boulder:
"boulder (plural boulders)
1. A large mass of stone detached from the surrounding land.
2. (geology) A particle greater than 256 mm in diameter, following the Wentworth scale
3. A large marble, in children's games. "
Source: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/boulder
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
Ah, yes...I remember the "boulder" exchanges. So very, very silly because obviously the rock..er boulder... WAS thrown whether it was though the window from the outside or the inside. So disingenuous.
TruthCalls
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Let's not lose sight of the fact that Vixen only threw out the Hellmann comment as a diversion from the fact that she said Mignini was not involved in any of the appeal trials, which was incorrect. Vixen hasn't learned how to say "oops, I was wrong" and thus the constant stream of diversions.
If we were all on a bus taking a three day cross-country trip, listing all of Vixen's lies, errors, distortions and deliberate deceptions might be a fun game to pass the time, but as a practical use for this board I'm thinking not so much.
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