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Trans Women are not Women

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Meadmaker said:
For the purposes of this thread, the significance is that a woman who is in a locker room about to change into a swimsuit cannot tell the difference between cis or trans, gay bi or straight, but she can tell the difference between male and female.
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And women are special in that regard... how exactly?

You could say the exact same thing about every other possible gender/sex/orientation/identification combination but... you can't because that would be homophobic or transphobic or if it's a man just scared of a woman just treated as adorably pathetic.

Again why are women the only ones allowed to present their discomfort toward being around other categories as fear?
 
JoeMorgue said:
Again why are women the only ones allowed to present their discomfort toward being around other categories as fear?
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Possibly because women are exposed to a level of harassment, intimidation, threat and actual assault by some men, so commonly that most of us men massively underestimate* its scale.

Possibly because it has always been thus and women have evolved to avoid situations where they are vulnerable to men they are not sure they can trust.


*A trivial example but I've become a fan of the silly but fun podcast "Drunk women solving crime". "Have you ever been a victim of crime?" they ask each guest. This usually leads to a story after a preamble remark about multiple tawdry penis-related incidents which just aren't unusual or upbeat enough to tell.
 
So why not just quarantine straight cis-men from public semi-private spaces and be done with it and stop the stupid game of pretending it's about access or rights for anyone else into we're 90% of the way into the conversation?

Again if this is just an anti-man crusade and when argued into a corner about the defense is gonna be "Well it's justified," then own it from the beginning, not only at the end.
 
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JoeMorgue said:
(snip)

Again why are women the only ones allowed to present their discomfort toward being around other categories as fear?
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Because "only" one man is raped for every 14 women?

One in five women and one in 71 men will be raped at some point in their lives
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https://www.nsvrc.org/statistics

Granted, there is no "good" number of rapes; even ONE in a century is too many. But we women are only being prudent when we take extra precautions and are much more vigilant -maybe even a little paranoid sometimes- about our surroundings.

The results of rape are devastating for the victims, and some never really recover. The very best treatment plan is to avoid it happening altogether.

So when we females say "this makes me uncomfortable" we believe we've earned the right to demand some respect for our position, and the statistics bear it out.

If you want to change the way we feel about it, start arguing about ways to make us safer instead of ways to pooh-pooh our very justified fears.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
It plainly isn't.

It's a case of one person's rights and freedoms conflicting with another's.
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Call if whatever you want every time we have this conversation it always goes the same way. Eventually we land on "Okay it's really only the straight cis-men we're worried about keeping away from other people and all the other distinctions and subcategories we've been splitting hairs over... well we kind of all knew none of that really mattered we just felt we had to go through those motions."

And the fact that people have to be drug kicking and screaming there, only to then pretty much readily admit it means something.

If it's not really transpeople or gender identity don't make it about that.

Own what you think. Say it. "Men are dangerous we need to be protected from them." If you can't just outright say, figure out why.

Don't play games.
 
Darat said:
Perhaps some men may be very uncomfortable using a toilet with apparently women walking around and using the facilities. Especially since unlike standard women toilets men will have their genitals visible?

Have to admit it doesn't bother me who is using the toilets I am using but perhaps I'm not typical in that?
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I apologize. I wasn't as clear as I wished. My question is, why can't transwomen using the men's restroom be the official policy?
 
JoeMorgue said:
So why not just quarantine straight cis-men from public semi-private spaces and be done with it and stop the stupid game of pretending it's about access or rights for anyone else into we're 90% of the way into the conversation?

Again if this is just an anti-man crusade and when argued into a corner about the defense is gonna be "Well it's justified," then own it from the beginning, not only at the end.
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They already are to some extent. Women have places where men are not generally welcome, and many of the posts to this topic have been attempting to make it clear we want to keep them.

I'm not "anti-man" at all. Like most women I know, I love men. I have a father, a husband, brothers, and a son. I trust them with my life, and am proud I absolutely believe other women can trust them, too.

But sadly it's not true of all men, everywhere. And I think most of us women believe that any man who desires to change the status quo to gain access to female-only spaces is doing it for the purpose of gaining access to women.
 
Belz... said:
Beautiful. **** men, I guess.
Hopefully they define 'rape' as forced sexual intercourse, and not some lower standard, as some have been wont to do in recent years.
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The hilited is absolutely NOT what I intended. I don't believe anyone, ever, deserves to be raped, and I do NOT believe for a moment it's any less devastating or any less life-changing for men.

Edited to include crucial words.
 
JoeMorgue said:
So why not just quarantine straight cis-men from public semi-private spaces and be done with it ...
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It's not really about straight cis-men. The bone of contention is that the definition of transwomen has broadened to include people who are in every physiological regard straight cis-men excepting their declaration that they are not. And this group adamantly demand access to female-only places as affirmation of their claim.

The rights or privileges of one group conflict head on with those of another.
 
DragonLady said:
The hilited is absolutely NOT what I intended. I don't believe anyone, ever, deserves to be raped, and I do NOT believe for a moment it's any less devastating or any less life-changing for men.

Edited to include crucial words.
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That's not what I meant with the asterisked word. I meant the other meaning.
 
JoeMorgue said:
... Eventually we land on "Okay it's really only the straight cis-men we're worried about
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It's not. Societies have reached various accommodations for that over time; some have female only bathrooms and changing rooms, others require women to be chaperoned by a family member any time they're outside the home. This thread isn't about that. Female-only spaces are because of that, but that's not what this thread is about.

Own what you think. Say it. "Men are dangerous we need to be protected from them." If you can't just outright say, figure out why.

Don't play games.
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Well, not the "we" because I'm not female.
"Some men are a threat to women and we should make reasonable accommodation to enabled women to avoid making themselves vulnerable to them." How's that?
 
theprestige said:
I apologize. I wasn't as clear as I wished. My question is, why can't transwomen using the men's restroom be the official policy?
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Who's official policy?

I'd expect the local Baptist church to have rather different ideas about sex & gender than, say, Starbucks.
 
theprestige said:
I apologize. I wasn't as clear as I wished. My question is, why can't transwomen using the men's restroom be the official policy?
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I think that is most appropriate for pre-op transwomen. Post-op they are much more welcome in the female areas.

But...I'm not sure what a fair means to determine that (without severe privacy violations) would look like.
 
DragonLady said:
The presence of INTACT males who are there for their OWN SEXUAL GRATIFICATION
changes that.
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Exactly, that is why gay men need to be banned from mensrooms. All "homosexuals" just like all "trans people" are really just sexual predators pretending.
 
jeremyp said:
The problem with your argument is that you could equally apply it to trans women. There are cubicles in men's rooms too. Why can't they use those?
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And look at them freak out when a transman comes in to use the clearly correct bathroom. The find the beard off putting and totally terrifying. They should know that he is just a transman obeying the rules.
 
ponderingturtle said:
And look at them freak out when a transman comes in to use the clearly correct bathroom. The find the beard off putting and totally terrifying. They should know that he is just a transman obeying the rules.
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What do the radfems propose to do w/ transmen, anyhow? I'm happy to accept them in men's spaces, but obviously I cannot speak for the gender critical folks.

ETA: I suppose it may be too cute by half to say that everyone should use the restroom wherein they generally raise the fewest eyebrows? That’s going to make for a handful of edge cases, the most androgynous among us, but hopefully we can just let them do their business in peace.
 
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