Trans Women are not Women

[JoeMorgue]

I've read at least a handful of evopsych folks (and even known a few) but don't recall any of them saying anything substantively equivalent to this.

Don't worry. You will never hearing anyone actually say anything remotely equivalent to anything ponderingturtle is ever replying to.

Ponderturtling talks to piles of straw that he can't even bother to shape into men.

 

[IsThisTheLife]

I don't know the specifics, and this could be mere conspiracy theorising, but there is a school of thought that suggests there is an organised plan which has been running for about 15 years and is funded and promoted by a small number of autogynaephile trans guys in senior positions in the tech industry.
I did read a long article some time ago that set out this theory and appeared to be closely argued with evidence and links. However I could see it was published in a right-wing journal and the SOP on this forum is to dismiss anything published in a right-wing journal on this topic, regardless of the quality of the argument or the evidence presented, and I don't have the link any more.

That did make me chuckle.

Anyway, since any and all opposition to radicalism is conservative by definition and this is then taken to be practically, if not actually, the same as 'far right', then as you say, there is no conceivable way to argue such a position here.

 

[DragonLady]

Anyway, since any and all opposition to radicalism is conservative by definition and this is then taken to be practically, if not actually, the same as 'far right', then as you say, there is no conceivable way to argue such a position here.

Yes; this. You've caught on quickly. Welcome aboard!

 

[Rolfe]

It's not just that. In the previous thread where I discussed this topic I was asked on a number of occasions for a link to statistics that backed up my position - such as the percentage of trans-identifying males in prison who have been convicted of sex crimes, or the actual incidence of suicide among trans people in Britain. The clearest presentation of these statistics I am aware of is on the web site "Fair Play For Women", because somebody has put in a fair bit of work trawling through government statistics and pulling it all together.

However when I linked to any of these pages I was immediately excoriated for relying on "a transphobic hate site run by terfs". End of argument.

 

[TomB]

I found this interesting: http://alicedreger.com/autogyn

It seems relevant since autogynophilia has been a topic. She also mentions gynophilia, androphilia and autoandrophilia.

A couple excerpts (hopefully I'm not overquoting):

Is naming it a philia good advocacy? As I note in the book, I don’t think we can have sustainable social policy that’s based on wrong facts. Therefore advocacy has to look at the facts. To me, there is nothing about Blanchard’s conception of male-to-female transgenderism that needs to get in the way of full advocacy for the rights of all transgender women. I think he feels the same way, given that he’s personally advocated for public funding of gender-affirming interventions for adult transwomen.

Therefore, nothing about Blanchard’s work, so far as I can see, is fundamentally inconsistent with good advocacy for trans rights. Might it require some education of people with regard to getting over their sexual phobias? Yes. But we achieved that with gay and lesbian rights, and I think we can achieve that here, too. Allowing transgender people to openly have sexualities that matter to their genders, it seems to me, is part of giving them full human rights.

...

I understand that it is hard for a lot of people to grasp that Bailey and Blanchard are pro-trans rights, but they are both clinical pragmatists who believe medical interventions should be aimed at leaving people better off. There is good evidence (some of it collected by Blanchard) that well-screened, well-treated transwomen are left better off psychologically after transition.

and

I know people try to write me off sometimes as a “terf” – “trans-exclusionary radical feminist.” I don’t think I am. Following MLK, I think we should judge people not by how they were born (skin) but by how they behave towards others (content of character). If someone is in a woman-only space and she is being a jerk, then however she got to be a woman, she should be ejected. If she’s treating other people well, she should be allowed to stay, however she came to be a woman.

Incidentally, maybe it’s just because of the relative numbers of each type, but I have been sexually harassed and mistreated by far more natal women in women-only spaces than by transwomen in women-only spaces. I don’t think natal women should get to say “I was born this way” as an excuse to be jerks, any more than trans women should get to.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

The key words there are "at home." That in and of itself is a comfort zone. And you can usually close and lock the door, gaining complete privacy.

Indeed, so what is needed surely is a private space rather than a sex segregated space?

Which is why I didn't fully understand the requirement as stated because I assumed women would be doing these things in cubicles rather than in communal areas?

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Come back to me on that one when Don't Bite The Sun is reality.

That isn't really a helpful answer. If you want me to understand your actual complaint then you are going to have to articulate it better than that, if not then fine but don't expect me to agree with you.

 

[GlennB]

Indeed, so what is needed surely is a private space rather than a sex segregated space?

Which is why I didn't fully understand the requirement as stated because I assumed women would be doing these things in cubicles rather than in communal areas?

In our bathroom there's a basin for washing hands (etc), a bin for disposing of women's sanitary gear, a drawer in a cabinet for tampons ... etc

In a women's public loo much of that is in public space and public view, and that's just for starters before we even go into stuff like it's a safe place to take your little daughter, borrow a tampon because you were caught short, change a nappy (in the older days maybe) ... etc

Etc

So, no, a cubicle is not enough.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

For pity's sake. Women manage periods at home all the time, because they have their space and their strategies, plenty fresh supplies of whatever they need, and washing facilities. And the men around are family, for goodness sake. Even as an adult the idea of having to rinse out bloodstained underwear in a washbasin with strange men walking past grosses me out, and the people most likely to be in that position are young girls coping with the start of the whole thing.

And my point was that privacy is required, rather than sex-segregation. I am not up to speed on the issues in 3rd world schools but from my experience the issue there is probably that the facilities don't lend themselves to privacy? Correct me if I am wrong on that.

We know perverts like JY present as trans and have a menstruation fetish. Who knows how many of him there are around? But leaving JY and his tampons-in-ten-year-olds fixation aside, the mere presence of men around is a no-no in that situation.

Deary me. We are on to perverts in paragraph 2.

Did you know that a pretty substantial proportion of miscarriages occur in the ladies' rooms of pubs?

No I didn't. Is it true? it seems unlikely. I'm confused as to why this is relevant again though.

Women need to fix wardrobe malfunctions. Mothers may need to use the lavatory with the door open to watch a baby in a pram. Pub ladies rooms (again) are the standard means of escape from the guy who won't leave you alone and is becoming a nuisance. He can't follow you in there, and that's the place where you can recruit help.

Unless the man is trans he STILL won't be able to follow you in there.

You guys simply don't have a clue about how we live, half the time.

Possibly not. Which is why I am asking questions.

Incidentally, don't transwomen have to fix wardrobe malfunctions, use the lavatory with a pram or hide from dates gone wrong? But they have to do this in the mens' room right?

Something else. We're getting to know Mr. Autogynaephilia a lot better than we did (many of the old-school transsexuals being HSTS). We understand what's making Mr. Autogynaephilia tick. He says "I just want to pee!" but that's a disingenuous lie. A large part of the fetish is the satisfaction these guys get when they believe they're really part of what I just described. Girly talk. Bonding (JY talks about wanting to "bond" with the ten-year-old he's going to ask for that tampon). Women's mysteries. This is why they angrily reject offers of third spaces just for them. They want to be one of the girls, and it's a sexual thrill for them. Worse still, with some of them the thrill is greater if they realise they're making women uncomfortable, or if they're challenged and they can then get on to their high horse about bigotry and transphobia and hate speech. They like to dominate, as well as be part of, women's mysteries.

How do you think that makes us feel, if we have to do anything from pinning up a bra strap to coping with a pregnancy disaster, and there's the possiblilty that some man who gets his thrills from being one of the girls is lapping it all up?

All of this seems to be conjecture on your part, and not very pleasant conjecture to be honest.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

No, actually, in general mental health conditions don't work like transgenderism. You don't need to claim to be schizophrenic to be diagnosed as schizophrenic. You don't need to claim to have an anxiety disorder to be diagnosed with an anxiety disorder. Etc, etc.

But self-identification is at the heart of trans identity. It's the biggest component of any diagnosis. That isn't typical at all.

This just seems incorrect. There really isn't the huge difference you are suggesting.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Enough information has been provided in the discussion (more than once) to answer that. You systematically blank it because either you can not empathise or you decide it does not matter in your perspective. This gives rise to copious volume of mansplaining that all lands light years from the target of this issue because you've blinded yourself to that and have adopted a feel-good but utterly false premise of exposing something-phobia.

Bollocks. It hasn't been explained. You may think it does because you agree with the assertions and think other people should accept them based on that alone. Which doesn't cut it when you want to deny rights to other people. and you in particular have made ZERO effort to do anything other than be obnoxious.

It's a rather bold illustration of bigoted intolerance.

That's quite funny really given the topic.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

We live in strange times. I actually agree with Baylor.

That isn't a good thing, you are aware of that?

 

[TomB]

Indeed, so what is needed surely is a private space rather than a sex segregated space?

Which is why I didn't fully understand the requirement as stated because I assumed women would be doing these things in cubicles rather than in communal areas?

Exactly how private do you think bathroom cubicles are?

Around here, they are typically half inch thick walls that extend from about a foot from the floor to less than six foot from the floor. And have gaps in the door to where if you are in the stall you can see who else is in the room. And certainly sound is not blocked at all.

Also, the waste bins, mirrors, and hand washing facilities are not in the cubicles.

It’s really not private at all.

 

[DragonLady]

This just seems incorrect. There really isn't the huge difference you are suggesting.

No; it IS correct, and it's part of the whole reason many of us are upset.

There's no gate to transgenderism other than self-declaration, and no way for anyone else to know who is -or is not- part of the club.

That's why I'm opposed to the whole idea of desegregating bathrooms. As Rolfe said upstream, there's long been a silent agreement to make room, because we believed any male in the washroom was either experiencing an emergency or was post-op.

Now, we realize ANY man can walk in at ANY time, and no one will look twice. So, in addition to all the awkward stuff, we also have the additional fear factor -being in a room with a person who can enter in full view of a crowd outside, rape us, drown us in the toilet, and walk out again in full view.... No one is even allowed to ask questions, and we are shouted down as "bigots" and "transphobes" and even "racists" if we try to point out that this really isn't a good idea.

While the risks would probably remain pretty low in busy, urban spaces -those most affected by these kinds of social changes early on- I think they would become a serious problem in rural places like highway rest areas. We women already have to be "on alert" in areas like that, but it gets even more difficult if we're expected to line up with a row of intact men in a windowless concrete room to wait for a toilet stall. Hell, even the thought of a bunch of men listening to me in that situation creeps me out.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Okay we need to address this.

Gender/sex is not complicated for.... pretty much everybody within a statistical margin of error. For most... like everybody there is not some great battle going on in their minds between what's between their legs and what's in their... gender soul as I'm pretty much reduced to calling it at this point.

No, but that's because the vast majority of people aren't trans. And because the vast majority of people display either physical and/or social cues that they belong to one gender or the other.

But you don't actually bother checking that, do you? You just accept that if someone looks like a man and seems to act like a man they are a man. And if they tell you they are a man later you don't question it.

It's only on the occasions that your presuppositions are challenged that you might have any issue.

Here's an example of someone I would say would sit in a grey area of not obviously male or female.

https://www.abdn.ac.uk/news/images/fem_100m_rdax_450x600.jpg

Now if you encountered this person you might assume one way or the other and they might either agree with you or correct you on an error.

My question is does it matter in any real sense whether this person is cis or trans? Does it matter whether their genitals match with what they have told you their gender is? Are you going to insist on evidence? Or are you going to accept their self-identification either way?

And while you don't know what genitals they have do they exist in some kind of Schroedingers Penis state where they can use whichever bathroom they want? and then if you find out they are trans they need to stop? Because apparently it's an issue now?

If not then what exactly is the issue for you?

 

[Crawtator]

Thanks for this. Assume i am clueless because i really dont see why periods require segregated bathrooms. i mean the women i have lived with have managed without one at home.

Your clarification on bathroom law agrees with my understanding. it is legal to have a segregated space provided it is justified. it is not a requirement nor a right to have one. This is an important difference

Bollocks. It hasn't been explained. You may think it does because you agree with the assertions and think other people should accept them based on that alone. Which doesn't cut it when you want to deny rights to other people. and you in particular have made ZERO effort to do anything other than be obnoxious.



That's quite funny really given the topic.

I'm having a hard time making sense of both of these posts. Is it a right for ANYONE to be able to go into a bathroom of their choice?

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

In our bathroom there's a basin for washing hands (etc), a bin for disposing of women's sanitary gear, a drawer in a cabinet for tampons ... etc

Cool.

In a women's public loo much of that is in public space and public view,

And? Am I to assume from this that either:

1. Washing your hands
2. Using a bin
3. Taking something from a drawer

is too much for a woman to do in the presence of a transwoman? Because on the face of it that seems utter ridiculous.

and that's just for starters before we even go into stuff like it's a safe place to take your little daughter, borrow a tampon because you were caught short, change a nappy (in the older days maybe) ... etc

Deary me. The presence of transwomen would change this?

To be honest, I would say even a mens' room would be a safe space to take my daughter, borrow a tampon (if they had them, unlikely I know) or change a nappy.

So, no, a cubicle is not enough.

I really don't think you have made the case at all here.

 

[DragonLady]

The presence of transwomen would change this?

The presence of INTACT males who are there for their OWN SEXUAL GRATIFICATION
changes that.

 

[TomB]

It occurs to me that women are uncomfortable with biological males in female spaces for pretty much the same reasons trans-women are uncomfortable in male spaces.

Trans-women don’t feel like they identify with the occupants of the men’s room. They identify with the occupants of the women’s room.

But a significant portion of women, it seems, do not identify some of these trans-women as female due to appearance, voice, behavior etc.

Everyone’s uncomfortable because no one knows how to fit these individuals. (Individuals because some may be perceived differently than other.)

I don’t know that there’s a workable near term solution. Maybe as society evolves or we stop building communal bathrooms.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Exactly how private do you think bathroom cubicles are?

Private enough to allow people who choose to do so to do whatever they want discreetly away from the eyes or presence of other people. Especially if that thing is something they would otherwise be comfortable doing in front of other women.

Around here, they are typically half inch thick walls that extend from about a foot from the floor to less than six foot from the floor. And have gaps in the door to where if you are in the stall you can see who else is in the room. And certainly sound is not blocked at all.

If the argument is that there are things a woman would be comfortable doing in a communal area in front of other women but would be uncomfortable doing in a cubicle when a transwoman is present in the same bathroom then I am struggling to take that objection seriously.

Also, the waste bins, mirrors, and hand washing facilities are not in the cubicles.

Indeed not. Are we saying that we need to cater to women who feel uncomfortable washing their hands near a transwoman??? And that's not transphobia?

It’s really not private at all.

It's more private than a communal sex-segregated area.