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Trans Women are not Women

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So apparently it's all about just what group you don't feel comfortable around in certain situations, the only difference is does the "Official Progressive Victim Ranking Chart" let you weasleword your way into claiming your level of personal comfort is about personal safety.

Women don't want to be around men when they pee, straights don't want to be around gays when they pee, cis don't want to be around trans when they pee, but only women get to present it as an issue of personal safety.
 
Belz... said:
Yes, I know. That's why I posted my disagreement with the statement. I can't parche parse your posts, however. Are you saying that it's about sex, or power, or both, or neither?
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It doesn't matter and no person will have the definitive last word on what rape is.
 
William Parcher said:
The goal is sex. The tool to acquire the sex is power. Power is not the goal. The goal is sex.
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I doubt that the viagra-fuelled Serbian soldiers who serially raped Moslem women in the rape camps in Bosnia were much interested in sex. It was ritual abuse and humiliation of the women (and their powerless menfolk?) they were after, ideally leaving the woman pregnant, i.e. the power that stems from control.

Meanwhile, there are other justifiable fears apart from rape - leering, suggestive remarks, groping - all of which can happen quickly and without leaving evidence.
 
GlennB said:
I doubt that the viagra-fuelled Serbian soldiers who serially raped Moslem women in the rape camps in Bosnia were much interested in sex. It was ritual abuse and humiliation of the women (and their powerless menfolk?) they were after, ideally leaving the woman pregnant. Power.

Meanwhile, there are other justifiable fears apart from rape - leering, suggestive remarks, groping - all of which can happen quickly and without leaving evidence.
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To be clear: I'm sure some rapes are all about power or humiliation. But "rape is not about sex" is inaccurate. Plenty of rapes are. I'd venture to say most.
 
JihadJane said:
Politics -> Rape culture -> sexual abuse.

Rape is about power (subjugation), not "sexual interest". It is violence.
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That doesn't explain why a woman would object to a gay man seeing her and not object to a gay woman seeing her. A gay man is less likely to rape her than a gay woman.
 
I’ve gone skinny-dipping with a bunch of gay guys I didn’t know, so I guess I’m an outlier on this one. I might do that with het guys I know and trust but not with ones I don’t know. (I probably wouldn’t with just one other person of any kind either, I feel safer in a group.) Gay guys can be awful bullies to women if they feel like it but most of the time the worst they do is not care about you, in a you’re-a-second-class-citizen kind of way.

Seems like I’m also opposite of posters here in that I went from less sympathetic to more over time, and especially when I learned ‘bottom surgery’ isn’t that common (because it was so hard for me to imagine getting rid of a whole-ass organ no matter how much you didn’t want it, and that’s gotta cost a lot, and what do you really get out of it, etc).
 
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The Atheist said:
I hope that's a rhetorical question?

Religion and morality hammered into humans for thousands of years. is the source.
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I doubt that they're the source. Evolution is the source. Religious morality is easy to remember rules of thumb - stories we tell ourselves to justify why humans feel the way we do about what's right and wrong.

Women are anxious about being vulnerable around men as a result of our history. We evolved that way. But the situation we have now is one evolution hasn't helped us solve yet because it's new: humans haven't been living around strangers (without usually attacking each other) for much more than about 10,000 years.
 
GlennB said:
I doubt that the viagra-fuelled Serbian soldiers who serially raped Moslem women in the rape camps in Bosnia were much interested in sex.
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It seems very unlikely that a bunch of young men having sex with women are uninterested in sex.

It was ritual abuse and humiliation of the women (and their powerless menfolk?) they were after, ideally leaving the woman pregnant, i.e. the power that stems from control.
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You say that like this is mutually exclusive with interest in sex. But it isn't. It can very easily be both.

Meanwhile, there are other justifiable fears apart from rape - leering, suggestive remarks, groping - all of which can happen quickly and without leaving evidence.
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Sure. And even in regards to rape, the motives of the rapist don't change the experience of the victim, so it's not like the rapist being interested in sex serves as any sort of excuse or mediating factor.
 
It's a rabbit hole there's no point in this thread going down, but I've never understood what exactly the whole "Rape is about power, not sex" thing is supposed to be saying exactly.

Even if it is about power the reason these horrid people rape is because they conceptualize their power through sex.

It's like saying robbing a bank isn't about greed but about power. Yeah it's true in a sense, but there's a reason you choose "stealing money" as the outlet for your thirst for power. You just can't make it not about money.

It can't not be about the defining action of the crime.
 
theprestige said:
Serious question: Why can't transwomen just use the men's restroom?
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Perhaps some men may be very uncomfortable using a toilet with apparently women walking around and using the facilities. Especially since unlike standard women toilets men will have their genitals visible?

Have to admit it doesn't bother me who is using the toilets I am using but perhaps I'm not typical in that?
 
theprestige said:
Serious question: Why can't transwomen just use the men's restroom?
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The reason I've seen given is that they risk assault if they use the men's restroom. I cannot speak to the accuracy of this claim on either a statistical or perceptual basis.
 
Meadmaker said:
Got any statistics on that? I would be surprised if that were true.
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TragicMonkey said:
Have you got any citations for cases where gay men have raped women? I would be surprised if that happened.
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I'll take that as "no".

And no, I can't cite a specific case, but I don't want to go too far "down that rabbit hole". Because it isn't really the topic of the thread.


For the purposes of this thread, the significance is that a woman who is in a locker room about to change into a swimsuit cannot tell the difference between cis or trans, gay bi or straight, but she can tell the difference between male and female.

Rolfe has already discussed at length the reason why in the past women might have been willing to assume trans, but might be less inclined to do so today.
 
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