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Trans Women are not Women

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theprestige said:
Have you considered trying a combination of sarcasm and strawmen?
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No see these totally not remotely bigoted christians often have very strong ideas of the roles of men and women. Nothing wrong or bigoted about that clearly but it will be a source of contention.
 
Belz... said:
You really must be very sad inside to base your entire debating style of strawmen and accusations of moral bankruptcy. If dragging people down is the only way you find value, I pity you.
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And I get that holding people accountable for the results of their beliefs and actions is the kind of thing that that many here view as unacceptable. On the plus side soon it will be easier for those good not at all bigoted christians to leave LGBT people to die thanks to these totally not at all bigoted laws permitting this non bigoted discrimination.

And as none of that is bigotry why is suddenly the christian who's religion is against interracial marriage a bigot? Its all good.
 
ponderingturtle said:
And I get that holding people accountable for the results of their beliefs and actions is the kind of thing that that many here view as unacceptable. On the plus side soon it will be easier for those good not at all bigoted christians to leave LGBT people to die thanks to these totally not at all bigoted laws permitting this non bigoted discrimination.

And as none of that is bigotry why is suddenly the christian who's religion is against interracial marriage a bigot? Its all good.
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You really must be very sad inside to base your entire debating style of strawmen and accusations of moral bankruptcy. If dragging people down is the only way you find value, I pity you.
 
Belz... said:
You really must be very sad inside to base your entire debating style of strawmen and accusations of moral bankruptcy. If dragging people down is the only way you find value, I pity you.
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Thoughts and prayers( and of course nothing that will actually help) that totally counts as helping even if it does nothing. And you refuse to answer when does supporting laws against someone else become bigotry in your view. When is someone fighting against the homosexual agenda a bigot vs just someone with different views on gays?
 
Since at some point in his "Yelling at pigeons on the sidewalk" routine ponderingturtle made the "Homophobe" comparison, let's address this.

Here's the difference. With gay marriage were being told "There is no difference, so don't act like there is" between a man and a woman loving and coinhabitating with each other and two men or two women loving and coinhabitating with each other (because there isn't). So the people who went "No it's different because I say so" where in the wrong there.

But with transgenderism we're being told "There is no difference, but just act like there is because that's the nice thing to do." We're being told that men and women are functionally different again, something I thought we had gotten over.

Again I'm sorry but face value transgenderism puts... sexism back on the table as the default. We have to pretend all those ways men and women are different are true again.

And they aren't. Sorry.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Since at some point in his "Yelling at pigeons on the sidewalk" routine ponderingturtle made the "Homophobe" comparison, let's address this.

Here's the difference. With gay marriage were being told "There is no difference, so don't act like there is" between a man and a woman loving and coinhabitating with each other and two men or two women loving and coinhabitating with each other (because there isn't). So the people who went "No it's different because I say so" where in the wrong there.

But with transgenderism we're being told "There is no difference, but just act like there is because that's the nice thing to do." We're being told that men and women are functionally different again, something I thought we had gotten over.
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Um yea that is totally not it at all and you have no understanding of either gay marriage or trans gender issues.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Listen if that's all it is, fine but... feet to the fire here.

1. I don't buy that we're having the biggest social discussion since gay rights and it's over nothing but pronouns.
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That’s because of all of the people who are not ready to say gender isn’t actually that big of a deal. All of the people, from those who grumble when asked to call someone with a lumpy throat ‘Karen,’ to those who are a bit worried about how well everyone will behave in changing rooms, to those who just want to put their foot down cause they’ve put up with so much already and a man is a man dammit, to those who are worried young people will get hurt rather than explore their identities safely, all the way to folks in near blood libel territory, saying ‘they’ want to pervert and have sex with your kids.

JoeMorgue said:
2. That's still... iffy on me because we're back to the who'll "It's very important that you acknowledge this distinction without difference" thing and those... always make me uncomfortable.
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Yep! Discomfort Battle! But what’s a name change if it’s not a distinction without a difference? And I’d assume you’re not particularly upset if someone changes their surname or goes from Ted to Bob. Other people might be more upset because they throw more weight into what genders ought to be, but for you it shouldn’t be a problem precisely because it’s a distinction without a difference.


JoeMorgue said:
That's a bit of a cop out. One that I will accept for a while since I'm not so try-hard who's one goal in life is to be as much of a jerkass as I can because I'm technically correct, but the argument sort of can't stop there forever.
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I don’t know, nobody has been able to decide which of the world’s religions is actually the right one either. I think the world will keep turning if we can’t decide whose idea of gender is the right one.

JoeMorgue said:
That's an unfair way of summarizing where some people are at, especially since if we can't just magically jump to where these people are at in a moments notice we're bigots.
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True, I was not being entirely serious. But the accusations when unfounded are just ruffled feathers based on what it looks like you’re saying. People do tend to lump “well what is this supposed to be about though” with “arrglbarg ruin society” after the first couple of times they see it, unfortunately.
 
Lithrael said:
That’s because of all of the people who are not ready to say gender isn’t actually that big of a deal.
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But I am.

I started the whole discussion there. My entire point is, was, and always will be that this entire discussion requires us to think gender is "a big deal." I'm so far from caring about gender I don't have a place to go with some "Lookit me being all progressive by patting this person on the back for subverting the gender roles."

So why have I got a multiple people screaming bigot at me?

Again Progressive if I can't make everybody happy and I'm a bigot no matter who I don't make happy... what's am I even doing?

If I can't win, can't lose, and can't quit the game I will flip the board over.
 
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You are but you’re also not the only one in the conversation and you asked why the debate is ongoing if that’s really all it is. It wouldn’t be if you were the only one in it.

Lithrael said:
(...) accusations when unfounded are just ruffled feathers based on what it looks like you’re saying. People do tend to lump “well what is this supposed to be about though” with “arrglbarg ruin society” after the first couple of times they see it, unfortunately.
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JoeMorgue said:
But with transgenderism we're being told "There is no difference, but just act like there is because that's the nice thing to do." We're being told that men and women are functionally different again, something I thought we had gotten over.

Again I'm sorry but face value transgenderism puts... sexism back on the table as the default. We have to pretend all those ways men and women are different are true again.

And they aren't. Sorry.
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No, we’re just being told gender presentation and identity are both up to the individual, ideally. Though I’m sure there are still places where it seems easier to throw in with the trans crowd than to be a guy who likes to wear makeup and speak softly or a gal who likes to wear suits and make eyes at the ladies, and I hope those places relax their dedication to gender role conformity so that people only feel like they’d like to live thinking of themselves as their target gender cause they actually feel right that way.

ETA: Another wrinkle is that you’re not going to actually DESTROY gender roles, those are still going to be a thing and some people actually - (gasp!) enjoy them and feel great in them, and I think that’s fine, and I also think it’s fine if someone sees another gender role and goes OOH OOH ME!

I like a world where we get it all: gender roles that anyone who likes them can have a go at fulfilling, and a bunch of people who go ‘eh’ and don’t bother with them at all, and a bunch of people in the middle that do gender like people who do religion by going to church for like, weddings and maybe Easter with their gran.
 
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ponderingturtle said:
Thoughts and prayers( and of course nothing that will actually help) that totally counts as helping even if it does nothing. And you refuse to answer when does supporting laws against someone else become bigotry in your view. When is someone fighting against the homosexual agenda a bigot vs just someone with different views on gays?
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I don't know who you're talking about, but it isn't me. You're fighting not a strawman, but a man composed of utter fantasy.

You really must be very sad inside to base your entire debating style of strawmen and accusations of moral bankruptcy. If dragging people down is the only way you find value, I pity you.
 
Lithrael said:
No, we’re just being told gender presentation and identity are both up to the individual, ideally.
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I get that that is always going to basically Progressivism's answer to everything, but that's not... how reality works. Okay?

Maybe that is really what I can't get to. Since there no meaningful non-biological differences, I can't get a grip on this.

That's why transgenderism does strike me as absurd on the surface. It's going "I'm 5 foot 4 but identify as 6 foot 2." Because... that's all gender is to me. Biology. It's on the same level as height or blood type or whether or not you have attached earlobes.

Everything else is society imposed bullcrap, that I got over a long time ago.

Conceptualizing and phrasing "I want gender roles to go away" as "I am allowed to literally self define some immutable trait about myself" just strikes me as the stupidest, least logical, and most counter-productive way possible of doing it.
 
This trouble is in your concept of gender as an immutable (?) measurable characteristic like height. I honestly think it’s better conceptualized like a belief system.

So many people relate to gender in so many different ways, with a bunch of groupings of similar thoughts on it, with such a huge influence coming from each person’s community and its traditions. You’ve already decided ‘everything else’ is society imposed bullcrap (like religion), why not take that last step, that that’s all these actually is or ever was to it?

Just say sex is not gender, call sex your immutable characteristic there. Say gender is the everything else bullcrap including name and gender pronoun and play along as needed.
 
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Person 1: "X should be treated in way Y"
Person 2: "Doesn't that cause problem A?"
Person 1: "You're a BIGOT!"
Person 2: "Why, though?"
Person 1: "A BIGOT would ask the same question. Accept without question!"
Person 2: "I don't think I will."
Person 1: "You're a BIGOT!"
Person 2: "That's not an argument."
Person 1: "You're a BIGOT!"
Person 2: "You're not going to get anywhere with this."
Person 1: "You're a BIGOT!"
Person 2: "Right, fine."
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
Are you serious? There is a whole host of services and treatments which physicians provide to ensure the treatments are appropriate. You dont just rock up at thre hospital say i am a woman three times and a surgeon lops your bits off.
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Services and treatments, yes. But there is no test. A test is different than a treatment or a service.
 
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