Trans Women are not Women

[theprestige]

You might be laboring under a very nimportant misconception. In modern parlance a transgender person need not alter themselves either chemically or physically. No hormones. No surgery. No medical evaluation. If a male states that he identifies as a woman, then "she" is a woman.

And anyone who disagrees is a bigot.

At least, that's the party line among trans rights activists.

This. Bradley Manning "became" a woman the moment he announced her true identity. Everything that has followed is essentially just backdating the paperwork on the already agreed-upon reality of xė's situation.

 

[ponderingturtle]

And again as I keep pointing out this is the loop we're stuck in, can't get out of, and are called bigots for just noticing it exists.

I meet a person who is biologically X. Upon talking I learn that this person is biologically X but identifies as Y. Okay for this concept to mean anything I now have to treat or at the very least conceptualize this person differently. Something has to change of this entire thing is a charade, a gussied up distinction without difference.

So what changes? What? I meet this person who is biologically an X, I now know they are an X who identifies as a Y? What changes. Something has to change.

And of course we have the freaks who don't fit into either class, so really until you have detailed medical proof the only logical solution is to treat everyone as a freak until you have enough medical proof in your hands to demonstrate their sex beyond a shadow of a doubt. Their own views and wants have nothing to do with this, they must prove they are biologically male or female and if they fail do to so they remain a freak.

 

[Belz...]

Yet anyone who disagrees with same sex marriage or the decriminalizing of homosexual sex is a bigot for some weird reason.

Maybe stop calling people bigots just because they disagree with you.

 

[ponderingturtle]

This. Bradley Manning "became" a woman the moment he announced her true identity. Everything that has followed is essentially just backdating the paperwork on the already agreed-upon reality of xė's situation.

And this crazy idea that people were always gay even before they "come out" nonsense like that shouldn't be tolerated.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Maybe stop calling people bigots just because they disagree with you.

Exactly none of the people in the whole thing are bigots, they just take different views to homosexuality, that doesn't make any of them bigots. People will be trying to paint this guy as racist next.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/progressivesecularhumanist/2019/05/georgia-city-councilman-interracial-marriage-is-not-how-christians-should-live/

No reason to view them as racist just because you disagree with them.

 

[8enotto]

When that line of thinking bears legal weight the problems really start.

If I find myself in legal troubles I can declare I identify as a turtle or a tree, maybe some rare endangered species and not be held responsible.

Why are we even considering throwing logic and reason out the window for a feeling? A feeling that could change next week and now the new idea would bear the same weight as the old did.

There is no baseline to work from, there is no credibility to the feelings.

 

[theprestige]

And this crazy idea that people were always gay even before they "come out" nonsense like that shouldn't be tolerated.

Not a crazy idea at all. I used the quotes on "became" because it wasn't until she came out that Manning was a woman in the social sense. It wasn't until she came out that she could start the process of becoming a woman in the legal sense. Obviously she was already a woman in her own head years before - perhaps even her entire life.

It's hard to imagine how you could have possibly misunderstood me so badly, nor how you could have possibly taken the most retarded possible line of response.

 

[JoeMorgue]

When that line of thinking bears legal weight the problems really start.

If I find myself in legal troubles I can declare I identify as a turtle or a tree, maybe some rare endangered species and not be held responsible.

Why are we even considering throwing logic and reason out the window for a feeling? A feeling that could change next week and now the new idea would bear the same weight as the old did.

There is no baseline to work from, there is no credibility to the feelings.

Because, most of the time, people are just trying to do the right thing.

I don't for a second doubt that what Transpeople are trying to get across is real. The fact that we disagree on exactly how to approach and conceptualize it doesn't change that.

I'm just more of a fan of "Just get rid of all unnecessary distinctions between and expectations put on the sexes/genders and be done with it" instead of letting people self define which keeps those unnecessary distinctions alive and helps perpetrate them.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Because, most of the time, people are just trying to do the right thing.

I don't for a second doubt that what Transpeople are trying to get across is real. The fact that we disagree on exactly how to approach and conceptualize it doesn't change that.

I'm just more of a fan of "Just get rid of all unnecessary distinctions between and expectations put on the sexes/genders and be done with it" instead of letting people self define which keeps those unnecessary distinctions alive and helps perpetrate them.

Of course then you have to define what is necessary vs unnecessary and how do you react to people who think something you think is unnecessary is necessary?

 

[ponderingturtle]

Not a crazy idea at all. I used the quotes on "became" because it wasn't until she came out that Manning was a woman in the social sense. It wasn't until she came out that she could start the process of becoming a woman in the legal sense. Obviously she was already a woman in her own head years before - perhaps even her entire life.

It's hard to imagine how you could have possibly misunderstood me so badly, nor how you could have possibly taken the most retarded possible line of response.

But if they were always gay, or always a woman then they were always that no matter what someone else viewed them as. So they were gay even if they were married to someone of the opposite sex. Why is the idea that they were always gay fine with you but the idea they they were always a different gender no matter what they did or how people viewed them at the time different? It isn't denying that those things happened but changing the whole enterpretation of it like how the marriage happened even though he was never straight.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Usually Ponderingturtle I let your "screaming into the void at the voices in your head" routine speak for itself, but I'll be clear here.

I'm not the one promoting gender stereotypes and demanding we keep them alive, just so transgender people can subvert them.

You want a man who identifies as a woman to be recognized. I want there to be nothing to differentiate a man from a woman that can be changed by simple personal fiat.

I win the "Woke" contest on this one.

*Makes a 'Scurry off' gesture with my hand*

 

[Lithrael]

Quick note to JoeMorgue: I think that this sentiment is in fact totally fine, only unusual:

I don't have a concept of "trans" gender because I don't apply any differences to the genders (...). I don't have unreasonable expectations for the sexes or genders, so I can't pat anyone on the back for subverting them. Telling me "I'm a man who identifies as a woman" hits me on the exact same level as "I'm a man who is sexually attracted to other men" or "I'm a man who wants to wear a dress." Since I don't think being attracted to men or wearing a dress "belong" to women as a group, I've got nothing to change about my mentality concerning you as a person.

Where you’re getting tripped up is:

Since I don't treat men and women different, I don't have anywhere to go when I'm told I have to, under threat of being called a bigot, treat a man with a penis and man with a penis who identifies as a woman differently

And in the bits where you want it all to make sense and be plottable on a diagram. You’re describing people making demands of you that I don’t think anyone is actually demanding. In practice, if all you do differently for the genders is pronouns, you’re all set, and anyone going “You did/didn’t hold the door for me” etc is the one being the *******. And it doesn’t make that kind of sense because it’s so personal. For this conversation, what gender is can mean a bunch of different things to a bunch of different people and nobody is more right than the next guy, just functionally we round up the few biggest groups that agree so that we can have a few chunks of consistency.

"Literally identify as the other gender as a way to get out of the expectations on my gender"

This one is where it looks like you’ve bought the ‘trans is the new gender essentialism’ line. People who started out appearing to be girly young ladies with girly interests and enjoying girly things are allowed to be transmen and keep all their dolls. People who started out appearing to be outdoorsy, sporty guys who like beer and jeans are allowed to be transwomen and continue to ride their Harleys. Conversely, guys who just like to dress up and sip tea are increasingly allowed to do that in public without being trans. Women who just want to wear jeans and not makeup, also allowed. Guys who figure out that they’d be happier thinking of themselves as women (and having that backed up by those around them), whether they want to wear jeans or skirts, same. Women who figure out that they’d be happier thinking of themselves as men, whether they want to wear jeans or skirts, (and etc) same. (Aside from places where performing the target gender role at certain times is required to get medical cooperation.)

“Then what’s the point?” some say, throwing up their hands. Well. The point is they like themselves better that way. “Draw it on the whiteboard how it makes sense or I’m gonna be grumpy,” some say. It’s still too personal for that, I think.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Usually Ponderingturtle I let your "screaming into the void at the voices in your head" routine speak for itself, but I'll be clear here.

I'm not the one promoting gender stereotypes and demanding we keep them alive, just so transgender people can subvert them.

You want a man who identifies as a woman to be recognized. I want there to be nothing to differentiate a man from a woman that can be changed by simple personal fiat.

I win the "Woke" contest on this one.

*Makes a 'Scurry off' gesture with my hand*

And until we get there what do we do?

Transgender college students more at risk for suicide when denied bathroom, housing rights

So until we get rid of segregated housing and bathrooms what do we do about these people who are killing themselves? I mean other than be happy that the sick freaks are gone.

 

[Belz...]

Exactly none of the people in the whole thing are bigots, they just take different views to homosexuality

Exactly. The only possibilities are that they are all bigots and that none of them are.

Totally nailed it. what a beautiful, black-and-white view of the world, you have.

 

[JoeMorgue]

In practice, if all you do differently for the genders is pronouns, you’re all set, and anyone going “You did/didn’t hold the door for me” etc is the one being the *******.

Listen if that's all it is, fine but... feet to the fire here.

1. I don't buy that we're having the biggest social discussion since gay rights and it's over nothing but pronouns.

2. That's still... iffy on me because we're back to the who'll "It's very important that you acknowledge this distinction without difference" thing and those... always make me uncomfortable.

And it doesn’t make that kind of sense because it’s so personal.

That's a bit of a cop out. One that I will accept for a while since I'm not so try-hard who's one goal in life is to be as much of a jerkass as I can because I'm technically correct, but the argument sort of can't stop there forever.

“Then what’s the point?” some say, throwing up their hands. Well. The point is they like themselves better that way. “Draw it on the whiteboard how it makes sense or I’m gonna be grumpy,” some say. It’s still too personal for that, I think.

That's an unfair way of summarizing where some people are at, especially since if we can't just magically jump to where these people are at in a moments notice we're bigots.

 

[JoeMorgue]

And until we get there what do we do?

Transgender college students more at risk for suicide when denied bathroom, housing rights

So until we get rid of segregated housing and bathrooms what do we do about these people who are killing themselves? I mean other than be happy that the sick freaks are gone.

I said *Makes Scurry Off gesture with hands* you sexist gender stereotyper. Come back when you don't want women barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen. You can speak to me when you don't hold meaningless gender stereotypes to be true.

See, two can play this game.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Exactly. The only possibilities are that they are all bigots and that none of them are.

Totally nailed it. what a beautiful, black-and-white view of the world, you have.

So what are the people who support bigotry who are totally not at all really bigots classed as? In the thread on egging nazis they were viewed as edgelord pozers who only wanted to be thought of as nazis but were not really nazis. So what is the person who wants to discriminate against someone else thought of and when are they just someone with strong opinions about gay people vs a bigot? How do you separate them as you are clear they are totally different things.

 

[JoeMorgue]

So what are the people who support bigotry who are totally not at all really bigots classed as? In the thread on egging nazis they were viewed as edgelord pozers who only wanted to be thought of as nazis but were not really nazis. So what is the person who wants to discriminate against someone else thought of and when are they just someone with strong opinions about gay people vs a bigot? How do you separate them as you are clear they are totally different things.

Why do you think men and women are so different? Why are you so bigoted?

 

[theprestige]

and how do you react to people who think something you think is unnecessary is necessary?

Have you considered trying a combination of sarcasm and strawmen?

 

[ponderingturtle]

I said *Makes Scurry Off gesture with hands* you sexist gender stereotyper. Come back when you don't want women barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen. You can speak to me when you don't hold meaningless gender stereotypes to be true.

See, two can play this game.

Trans suicide is a funny game I to you I see.