Mueller Investigation pt 6

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thaiboxerken said:
Trumpublicans will spin it either way. We should not be making decisions based on what his cult will or won't do.
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Yes!

But!

Decisions should be based on reality. And unfortunately, the TrumpClan is a siginificant chunk of reality.
 
thaiboxerken said:
The reality is, their opinion on impeachment should not matter.
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This is why I differentiated between impeachment being the principled right thing to do, but waiting is probably the tactically best thing to do. Which you choose depends, I suppose, on what your end goal is. Do you want to do the right action or get the best result?
 
Upchurch said:
This is why I differentiated between impeachment being the principled right thing to do, but waiting is probably the tactically best thing to do. Which you choose depends, I suppose, on what your end goal is. Do you want to do the right action or get the best result?
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Sounds something like “The end justifies the means”.

I’m leaning towards impeachment. Getting Mueller and McGahn and the rest testifying publicly before the Senate will provide condemning sound bites that would carry far more weight with the public at large than the written Mueller report.

Right now, we are again witnessing obstruction in plain view. The law clearly states that Congress can demand Trump’s tax return. Not providing it, or willfully delaying the release, or ordering others not to follow a court order, are themselves obstructing justice. As is telling subordinates to ignore lawful subpoenas. Trump has used lawyers as weapons his entire adult life, overall to his benefit. It’s unreasonable to expect him to stop now.

I predict a a Constitutional crisis, with marshals ready to take Mnuchin or his IRS underling into custody for contempt of court. I want people held accountable. But I find this tactic of delay, delay, delay quite aggravating. Grrr...
 
Actually, the Dems should be willing to go all the way to the Supreme Court to get Trump to testify under oath - there is unambiguous precedent in the form of Clinton.
 
Fast Eddie B said:
Sounds something like “The end justifies the means”.
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Oh, I make no judgement, really, one way or the other. I see value in both approaches. Like most complex situations, the best solution depends on what you’re specifically trying to accomplish. Subtle nuances can make a big difference.
 
Upchurch said:
Oh, I make no judgement, really, one way or the other. I see value in both approaches. Like most complex situations, the best solution depends on what you’re specifically trying to accomplish. Subtle nuances can make a big difference.
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I agree. It’s not clear cut. Which is why I just said I’m leaning towards impeachment. I certainly appreciate the arguments against.
 
I can't find it now, but I saw data the other day which showed that the public approval of the impeachment of Nixon was very low (around 14%, IIRC) until it had been underway for a while. It's also worth bearing in mind that impeachment would uncover and make public even more evidence against Trump. One last point that I saw made elsewhere was there was a commentator who said "Americans wait for the TV show" - meaning that the majority of people aren't going to read the Mueller report. But a lot of them would watch impeachment hearings. So even the reiteration in an official setting of information that is now public would help to change hearts and minds.

I think impeachment would have or very quickly gain widespread support. Just today there was an article by a Republican who worked on Trump's transition team who said that the Mueller report was the final straw for him and he now supported impeachment. Yes, there would be a hardcore base who wouldn't accept it and who would start trouble - but those same people would do the same thing if Trump were to be voted out. And they would have more support, because fewer people would be informed of the facts.
 
Is anyone tempering their hatred for Donald Trump, now that he has been investigated, and not charged with anything?

I know people like my brother were telling me that once the Mueller Report came out, i'd start hating him too, and I agreed that when it did, and he was charged with a crime, i'd turn on Trump in a heartbeat.

Now that he has not been charged, has anyone gone the other way?

It seems for 2 years Fox, Trump, and his supporters have been correct, and now that the Mueller report is out, no one is realizing that they have been fooled for two years.

The media and DNC have been trying to correct their galactically bad 2016 campaign for almost 3 years, is the fog of cognitive dissonance starting to lift?

Honesty please.
 
Upchurch said:
This is why I differentiated between impeachment being the principled right thing to do, but waiting is probably the tactically best thing to do. Which you choose depends, I suppose, on what your end goal is. Do you want to do the right action or get the best result?
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I believe the best result will come from impeachment.
 
Scott Adams, who has been predicting almost everything correctly for 3 years, has said he thinks the percentage of people who are going to start flipping to support Donald Trump, is around 10%.

If 10% of past anti-trumpers are flipping to his side now that he has been vetted, then that spells bad news for 2020 Dem run.
 
Drewbot said:
Is anyone tempering their hatred for Donald Trump, now that he has been investigated, and not charged with anything?
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As Mueller himself points out, and as has been pointed out throughout this process, he was never going to indict a sitting President. That's Congress' job via impeachment.
 
Drewbot said:
Is anyone tempering their hatred for Donald Trump, now that he has been investigated, and not charged with anything?

I know people like my brother were telling me that once the Mueller Report came out, i'd start hating him too, and I agreed that when it did, and he was charged with a crime, i'd turn on Trump in a heartbeat.
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That's a weird standard.

It has been on record for a while that DOJ policy was that it was not their role to charge a sitting president, so no matter what evidence was found, that was not going to happen.
 
Drewbot said:
Is anyone tempering their hatred for Donald Trump, now that he has been investigated, and not charged with anything?

I know people like my brother were telling me that once the Mueller Report came out, i'd start hating him too, and I agreed that when it did, and he was charged with a crime, i'd turn on Trump in a heartbeat.

Now that he has not been charged, has anyone gone the other way?

It seems for 2 years Fox, Trump, and his supporters have been correct, and now that the Mueller report is out, no one is realizing that they have been fooled for two years.

The media and DNC have been trying to correct their galactically bad 2016 campaign for almost 3 years, is the fog of cognitive dissonance starting to lift?

Honesty please.
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I notably refused to make conclusions and regularly called the arguments about collusion here bad arguments.

This report makes me support impeachment.
 
Drewbot said:
It seems for 2 years Fox, Trump, and his supporters have been correct, and now that the Mueller report is out, no one is realizing that they have been fooled for two years.
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You think the Mueller report supports, for example, Trump's statement that neither he nor his campaign had any contacts with Russians?
 
Who has been charged with colluding with the Russians?

There are people on the campaign that are not sitting presidents.
 
Drewbot said:
Scott Adams, who has been predicting almost everything correctly for 3 years, has said he thinks the percentage of people who are going to start flipping to support Donald Trump, is around 10%.

If 10% of past anti-trumpers are flipping to his side now that he has been vetted, then that spells bad news for 2020 Dem run.
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Addams is an idiot and wrong constantly. During the election he thought the president would be successfully persuasive. He wasn't. Polls were and remain right. It wasn't a strategy.
 
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