Mueller Investigation pt5

[a_unique_person]

"While this does not conclude that the president committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him." ~ Robert Mueller ca. 2019


"Total exoneration!" ~ Donald Trump ca. 2019

Can Congress get evidence that Mueller couldn't?

 

[Mumbles]

In any case...

Dolt 45 was both holding secret negotiations to build a tower in Moscow, and publicly lauding one of Russia's stooges (namely, wikileaks), while campaigning. This is probably legal, but strikes me as unseemly.

(full disclosure - I've despised wikileaks ever since they took advantage of Manning's mental illness [no, not that she's trans, her depression] to obtain classified info, and then abandoned her.)

 

[smartcooky]

Here's another thing.

If there was no collusion with the Russian government, why on earth did everyone in Trump's orbit, including Trump himself, tell so many lies about their contacts with Russia?

If they weren't covering up election fixing, what they hell were they covering up?

Could it be crimes, such as money laundering for Russian banks?

Could it be the fact (and it IS a fact) that Trump was using the office of the presidency to personally enrich himself?

Could it be the fact (and it IS a fact) that members of the Trump orbit were getting big, illicit payments from Russians (Manafort, Flynn etc)

What were they lying about?

 

[Aridas]

No patriotic anti-trumper wants to read that their president is not a foreign agent!

Mmm. I don't like Trump at all. I want him out as soon as possible. Yet, I would very certainly prefer that he wasn't actually a foreign agent. That is, in the end, probably a worse thing for the country, after all, than just being a total dumbass. Both options are terrible, but the total dumbass one is, I think, less terrible.

Where? Your ignorance of what's going on is sad and funny all at once.

We're long past the point where "ignorance" can be taken as a reasonable descriptor there.

One speculation I had was:

Suppose Mueller had sufficient evidence to indict, say, Don Jr. Might he have held off on doing so because he believed that Trump would immediately pardon Don Jr? Or would Mueller not be allowed to consider that sort of thing?

At last check, prosecutors are not required to bring any charges in the first place, regardless of the evidence they have. Depending on the laws in question, of course, he could easily have shipped off the evidence to the state of New York for them to prosecute, regardless, as an addendum to that speculation. Not something to count on until after it actually happens, either way.

Hmm. From the CNN article...

After making a "thorough factual investigation" into these matters, the Special Counsel considered whether to evaluate the conduct under Department standards governing prosecution and declination decisions but ultimately determined not to make a traditional prosecutorial judgment. The Special Counsel therefore did not draw a conclusion one way or the other as to whether the examined conduct constituted obstruction. Instead, for each of the relevant actions investigated, the report sets out evidence on both sides of the question and leaves unresolved what the Special Counsel views as "difficult issues" of law and fact concerning whether the President's actions and intent could be viewed as obstruction. The Special Counsel states that "while this report does not conclude that the President committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him."
The Special Counsel's decision to describe the facts of his obstruction investigation without reaching any legal conclusions leaves it to the Attorney General to determine whether the conduct described in the report constitutes a crime

I don't think that there's anyone here who would be surprised that Barr wouldn't pursue, since he had the option not to do so, and not only just to protect Trump.

Now we have the issue that trump accepts Putin's denials while there is a report he is praising that seems to reject those denials. That's pretty insulting.

Trump has flip flopped on that so many times already that there's not much issue left there. That he's flip flopped so much is, of course, a serious issue, though.

Who?

Meh. That just gets to the heart of the problem of a bunch of partisan Republicans. They seized on the idea that this was a partisan witch hunt conspiracy theory on par with Uranium 1, meant solely to steal the win from them, rather than ever seriously considering the objective need for and merit of the investigation, which is what pretty much everyone reasonable was focused on. If Trump got ousted because it was found that he colluded with Russia illegally, that would be a nice bonus for many of us, but... Pence has the potential to be distinctly worse, policy-wise. Better for relations with the rest of the world and a little less invigorating to the white supremacists, though, probably, not that that's saying much. That Trump's a career criminal and the antithesis of pretty much every value that the GOP has claimed to embrace, of course, is largely ignored by them.

 

[Elagabalus]

And now the cries for obstruction. Obstruction of what and how?

Hillary freaking lost. Get over it.

You think the Dems are doing this for Hillary?

 

[Safe-Keeper]

Who?

Mueller's report contained no reference to any person named Hillary.

Did you post off topic intentionally, or are you just having serious problems understanding the report summary that has been released?

It's an inside joke or call sign or something for them, I think. Every post has to include the words "Obama" or "Clinton". Just like how here in Norway, it seems that regardless of topic, the news story comments thread will, without fail, include a mention of "muslims", "islam", or "socialists".


I think it's like the red X's they're so fond of. It helps them find each other. Kinda like a gang sign for Internet trolls.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

The news reports that Mueller has "no evidence of collusion", or even that Trump is "exonerated" are pretty strange, given all the evidence of collusion we already have. Seth Abramson summarises this pretty well on Twitter.

 

[smartcooky]

It's an inside joke or call sign or something for them, I think. Every post has to include the words "Obama" or "Clinton". Just like how here in Norway, it seems that regardless of topic, the news story comments thread will, without fail, include a mention of "muslims", "islam", or "socialists".


I think it's like the red X's they're so fond of. It helps them find each other. Kinda like a gang sign for Internet trolls.

You mean its like the Freemasons' Seekrit handshake?

 

[Mumbles]

Here's another thing.

If there was no collusion with the Russian government, why on earth did everyone in Trump's orbit, including Trump himself, tell so many lies about their contacts with Russia?

If they weren't covering up election fixing, what they hell were they covering up?

Could it be crimes, such as money laundering for Russian banks?

Could it be the fact (and it IS a fact) that Trump was using the office of the presidency to personally enrich himself?

Could it be the fact (and it IS a fact) that members of the Trump orbit were getting big, illicit payments from Russians (Manafort, Flynn etc)

What were they lying about?

Dolt 45: The man's both a malignant narcissist and a fool. I said at the start that it was quite possible that he fired Comey simply because he was angry that anyone wouldn't pledge loyalty to him. Remember, this is the same clown that just declared his Muslim ban out of the blue, and then fired Yates when she wouldn't defend his plainly unconstitutional statute that he failed to consult her on. His entire administration has been nothing but a mess.

The rest: Who knows? These are all either similarly ignorant/evil/corrupt, but without the likely mental decline. Many of them are obvious criminals who collaborated against the US, or did something else that'd make them panic. But it's a collection of grifters and bigots in any event.

 

[Bogative]

How convenient to claim nothing else can be revealed because of ongoing investigations.

Corruption, no problem.

Whether Putin has compromising stuff on Trump? Curiously silent.

Clearly Barr is not releasing the report as he claimed he would. It will be up to the House Democrats and they'll have to get around a lot of stalling.

The speaker of the house could've been briefed on the details of the investigation, but she refused.

Curious that she doesn't want to get any questions she may have answered directly from the AG. Probably a lot more politically advantageous to decry obstruction when the DOJ releases a redacted version of the report because the law requires them to. The sad part is the anti-Trump conspiracy theorists will fall for it.

 

[AnonyMoose]

Here's another thing.

If there was no collusion with the Russian government, why on earth did everyone in Trump's orbit, including Trump himself, tell so many lies about their contacts with Russia?

If they weren't covering up election fixing, what they hell were they covering up?

Could it be crimes, such as money laundering for Russian banks?

Could it be the fact (and it IS a fact) that Trump was using the office of the presidency to personally enrich himself?

Could it be the fact (and it IS a fact) that members of the Trump orbit were getting big, illicit payments from Russians (Manafort, Flynn etc)

What were they lying about?

They were obviously fearful that their actions and relations with Russian individuals might be stepping too closely to a fine line, and feared they may get in trouble for possibly crossing that fine line.

Lucky for them, Mueller's investigation (based on Barr's letter thus far) could not conclude, beyond a reasonable doubt, criminal intent.

Criminal intent is absolutely necessary in order to press any charges in this situation. Mueller couldn't prove that these people weren't just simply unknowingly and/or unwittingly aiding a crime in progress (russian election interference), rather than purposeful intent.

Without absolute unquestionable purposeful intent, the Mueller investigation would have blown up the politics behind this whole fiasco ten times worse than it already is.

That kind of a questionable conclusion would have then dragged on for years and years. IMO, Mueller made the right decision in bringing this Russian collusion thing to an end.... and stepping aside to allow all these other investigations to then take center stage.

Trump and his minions think he's free and clear. I suspect his nightmare has only just begun.

 

[Aridas]

The speaker of the house could've been briefed on the details of the investigation, but she refused.

Curious that she doesn't want to get any questions she may have answered directly from the AG. Probably a lot more politically advantageous to decry obstruction when the DOJ releases a redacted version of the report because the law requires them to. The sad part is the anti-Trump conspiracy theorists will fall for it.

Speaker Nancy Pelosi told Democrats on Saturday she’ll rebuff any efforts by the Justice Department to reveal details of special counsel Robert Mueller's findings in a highly classified setting — a tactic she warned could be employed to shield the report's conclusions from the public.

Three sources who participated in a conference call among House Democrats said Pelosi (D-Calif.) told lawmakers she worried the Justice Department would seek to disclose Mueller's conclusions to the so-called Gang of Eight — the top Democrats and Republicans in the House and Senate — which handles the nation’s most sensitive secrets. The substance of Gang of Eight briefings are heavily guarded.

“Everyone pounded the transparency drum continuously,” said a source who was on the Saturday afternoon call.

Pelosi said it was her belief that the findings of the report should be unclassified, a consistent theme from Democrats who said they wanted Attorney General William Barr to share virtually every scrap of paper connected to the Mueller report with Congress.

Amazing how... twisted your thoughts are.

 

[Toontown]

For the forum, here is the letter from Barr.

Conclusions

Russian interference: YES
Trump: NO. Claims to believe Putin

Conspiracy to defraud the United States: As the report states: "The investigation did not establish that members of the Trump Campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in it's election interference activities."

Trump: Begged Russia for help on national TV and was helped, but begging for help and getting it does not establish coordination.

Obstruction of justice: The Special Counsel states that "while this report does non conclude that the president committed a crime it also does not exonerate him."

DOJ's determination: Developed evidence is not sufficient. Prosecution declined.

The question of whether Trump is compromised is beyond the scope of Mueller's mandate and was not investigated.
_________________________________________________________________________

My conclusion: No surprise, no smoking gun, no "Deep State" frame, Trump skated*. Lost his "witch hunt" strawman. Lost his "deep state" strawman. Will need new strawmen to fill the void. Big ones. Because those were some big-ass strawmen he had there. I expect Trump's titanic new strawmen to be rolled out shortly.

* Nixon would also have skated if he had not taped himself. Getting rid of the Nixon criminal was a stroke of luck. The country continues to lack any consistent ability to deal effectively with criminal politikers. This, I believe, is a critical shortcoming, and a price may well be extracted, probably at the worst possible time. - Murphy's Law

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

And now the cries for obstruction. Obstruction of what and how?

Hillary freaking lost. Get over it.

Oh dear. How about this: Trump is corrupt, a con and a crook. Why should he be exempt from being investigated? Get over it.

 

[smartcooky]

The speaker of the house could've been briefed on the details of the investigation, but she refused.

Curious that she doesn't want to get any questions she may have answered directly from the AG. Probably a lot more politically advantageous to decry obstruction when the DOJ releases a redacted version of the report because the law requires them to. The sad part is the anti-Trump conspiracy theorists will fall for it.

The usual rubbish from you Bogative... not reading the link you posted

"Speaker Nancy Pelosi told Democrats on Saturday she’ll rebuff any efforts by the Justice Department to reveal details of special counsel Robert Mueller's findings in a highly classified setting — a tactic she warned could be employed to shield the report's conclusions from the public."

Its pretty simple for even a foreigner like me to understand that if she accepts a classified briefing, then that gives weight to the claims that this should be classified. By not accepting the classified briefing, she is sending a clear, unequivocal message to people who are smart enough to work it out, that the whole report must be made public.

What Pelosi wants is for EVERYTHING Mueller found to be made public... anything less than that will leave the rancid stench of a cover up.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Can Congress get evidence that Mueller couldn't?

What makes you think Mueller didn't get said evidence? Barr has quietly refused to release any of Mueller's findings except the two things in Trump's favor.

Two years and all those indictments and you don't think Mueller has a hell of a lot more evidence than a couple of paragraphs that is Barr's summary.

We're being conned but I don't think this is the last word. All of the domino indictments and the House investigations are still to come.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

The speaker of the house could've been briefed on the details of the investigation, but she refused.

Curious that she doesn't want to get any questions she may have answered directly from the AG. Probably a lot more politically advantageous to decry obstruction when the DOJ releases a redacted version of the report because the law requires them to. The sad part is the anti-Trump conspiracy theorists will fall for it.

Curious you missed this in the first paragraph:

a tactic she warned could be employed to shield the report's conclusions from the public.

 

[Belz...]

Irrelevant, Trump has been cleared of all charges. No collusion with Russia, No obstruction of justice.

Really? Where?

(I know you won't answer this)

 

[Belz...]

That isn't what Mueller said. He found insufficient evidence to indict. Not the same thing.

Yeah but Chris is desperate for his hero to be cleared.

Sunk cost fallacy. You don't want to look like a fool, either. I don't know why it's so hard to say "woah, I thought this guy worked for regular Americans, but it turns out he's a lying criminal *******!"

 

[Horatius]

That just gets to the heart of the problem of a bunch of partisan Republicans. They seized on the idea that this was a partisan witch hunt conspiracy theory on par with Uranium 1, meant solely to steal the win from them, rather than ever seriously considering the objective need for and merit of the investigation, which is what pretty much everyone reasonable was focused on.

My conclusion: No surprise, no smoking gun, no "Deep State" frame, Trump skated*. Lost his "witch hunt" strawman. Lost his "deep state" strawman. Will need new strawmen to fill the void. Big ones. Because those were some big-ass strawmen he had there. I expect Trump's titanic new strawmen to be rolled out shortly.

Yeah, I have to wonder if all the people crowing about "No Collusion!" today will bother to admit that the whole "Deep State Partisan With Hunt" line was also complete BS.

Hey, Benghazi Boys? This is how you do an investigation.