Mueller Investigation pt5

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a_unique_person said:
Mueller has indicated, what was it, 16 Russians? Is that not enough for you? There is no doubt about Russian interference in the election.
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Again, "Russiagate" was the moronic conspiracy theory that Trump colluded with Russia/Putin to steal the election from Killary. Which is now dead. Of course you know that and it's a question you should ask yourself what you are trying to achieve by moving the goal-posts.
 
Childlike Empress said:
Again, "Russiagate" was the moronic conspiracy theory that Trump colluded with Russia/Putin to steal the election from Killary. Which is now dead. Of course you know that and it's a question you should ask yourself what you are trying to achieve by moving the goal-posts.
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I can't recall anyone on this forum self describing as a believer in something called "russiagate".

Who specifically set up these goal posts?
 
Childlike Empress said:
Again, "Russiagate" was the moronic conspiracy theory that Trump colluded with Russia/Putin to steal the election from Killary. Which is now dead. Of course you know that and it's a question you should ask yourself what you are trying to achieve by moving the goal-posts.
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The only "moronic conspiracy theory" was that the Mueller investigation was a Deep State hoax and coup attempt -- one you were peddling -- which is now not only merely dead, but really most sincerely dead. The perfectly rational theory that there was collusion between the Trump campaign and Russians has been confirmed, and the best you Deep State conspiracy theorists can hope for is that Trump himself escapes with plausible deniability or insufficient evidence to prosecute. And that is yet to be seen.
 
As has become obvious, Donnie was apparently in quite a lather Friday about the Mueller report coming out. Based on thirty-five years of seeing and listening to Trump on local news shows here in New York, I'm not surprised. So many of his endeavors have ended badly. The football league, the airline, the casinos. In his heart of hearts -- presuming he actually has one -- he had to be skittish, having been burned so many times in the past. What did I screw up this time? What did I forget?

It's been proven there were a lot of contacts, including indirect ones, between the Trump campaign and people representing (or connected to) the Russian government. It also seems pretty clear that Putin did not look forward to Clinton being elected president. That he wanted to at least damage her if not stop her. It seems reasonable to presume, given the way Trump has always operated, that his campaign would at least imply to the Russians there would be a quid pro quo in exchange for election help. But as Michael Cohen testified, Trump has learned how to avoid leaving a paper trail, and not to say something incriminating that can later be repeated by persons who were present. But since Donnie has snatched defeat from the jaws of victory so many times, he had to have been asking himself: What am I overlooking?

All the aides who accompanied him Friday to Florida as he sweated out the release of the report. They described him as being "calm." Sounded like the hours before the big storm hits. I'm sure Trump knew, 'This could really be bad,' but was just hoping they hadn't found anything incriminating Donnie, something he'd totally forgotten about. Apparently, at least for one time, DonDon managed to dodge the bullet.
 
Giz said:
Worth reading in its entirety (matt taibbi’s take):

https://taibbi.substack.com/p/russiagate-is-wmd-times-a-million?
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You are right, but most people participating in this thread would not dare read something that may contradict their conspiratorial belief that Trump colluded with Russia to steal the election. Instead, they glance at the headline and respond with something silly like:
Also, did we invade a country, overthrow it's government, and cause tens of thousands of casualties total, and I just missed it?

Seems clear to me that this generation's WMD is...still WMD. The middle east is still destabilized, and we're still technically at war, after all.
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Entirely missing Taibbi's point which is:
As a purely journalistic failure, however, WMD was a pimple compared to Russiagate. The sheer scale of the errors and exaggerations this time around dwarfs the last mess. Worse, it’s led to most journalists accepting a radical change in mission. We’ve become sides-choosers, obliterating the concept of the press as an independent institution whose primary role is sorting fact and fiction.

We had the sense to eventually look inward a little in the WMD affair, which is the only reason we escaped that episode with any audience left. Is the press even capable of that kind of self-awareness now? WMD damaged our reputation. If we don’t turn things around, this story will destroy it.
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Bogative said:
You are right, but most people participating in this thread would not dare read something that may contradict their conspiratorial belief that Trump colluded with Russia to steal the election. Instead, they glance at the headline and respond with something silly like:

Entirely missing Taibbi's point which is:
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Unfortunately, journalists don’t want to and their audience doesn’t want to. Because orange man bad.

Further, I would predict that if, for example, CNN were to issue a mea culpa and say that the Russia thing was a lot of wishful thinking partisan hot air, they would promptly lose audience share to an unapologetic competitor.

No patriotic anti-trumper wants to read that their president is not a foreign agent!
 
I do think that, outside Fox and the fringe media, there has been a clear line between news and editorials.
If there is ambiguity, it's due to Trump's vagueness on anything just as much as the media trying to stay interesting.
So I don't see the connection to the Iraq reporting, which relied on a single news source.
News on Trump'l on the other hand comes from many sources, official and un-.
 
Bogative said:
You are right, but most people participating in this thread would not dare read something that may contradict their conspiratorial belief that Trump colluded with Russia to steal the election. Instead, they glance at the headline and respond with something silly like:
....
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There is no doubt that Trump hoped/s to build a Trump Tower in Moscow and wanted Putin's help, explaining Trump's continuous pandering to a notorious thug and his private meetings with him. There is no doubt that Putin wanted Trump to be President for his own reasons; he has said so himself. There is no doubt that Russia actively and aggressively worked to defeat Clinton; more than a dozen Russians have been indicted. There is no doubt that D. Trump Jr. replied "“If it’s what you say I love it" when he believed the Russian government was offering "dirt" on Clinton and held a meeting for that purpose. There is no doubt that Trump's campaign manager had extensive, years-long connections with Russians. And those are just a few highlights.

If the Trump campaign and Putin's government were doing all this independently, without consultation or coordination, then I guess you can say there was no "collusion." That sure doesn't make Trump a patriot.
 
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You think it might be a good time to retire my wrist brace?

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Bogative said:
You are right, but most people participating in this thread would not dare read something that may contradict their conspiratorial belief that Trump colluded with Russia to steal the election. Instead, they glance at the headline and respond with something silly like:

Entirely missing Taibbi's point which is:
....
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Taibbi's bottom line is this:
There was never real gray area here. Either Trump is a compromised foreign agent, or he isn’t.
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But that's not true at all. There's plenty of gray area. Trump doesn't have to be a paid foreign agent to be shaping American policy to serve his own financial interests. He didn't have to be a paid foreign agent to benefit from Russia deciding that a President Trump would be better for them than a President Clinton, and working toward that end. It's not black and white at all. There's plenty of misconduct, even if it's not prosecutable.
 
Childlike Empress said:
Again, "Russiagate" was the moronic conspiracy theory that Trump colluded with Russia/Putin to steal the election from Killary.
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No, that's not what it is. The theory is that Russia wanted to destabilise the west to their advantage, and choose to hurt Clinton because she's a Russia hawk. It happened to help Trump, who has a long history of having property uses by Russian crooks to launder money stolen from their country.

Which is now dead.
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Where? Your ignorance of what's going on is sad and funny all at once.
 
Belz... said:
.....
Where? Your ignorance of what's going on is sad and funny all at once.
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A short guide to what we already know:
But through legal documents and court hearings, Mueller has already revealed rich details about the Russian attack on U.S. democracy in 2016 — and his investigation has triggered unpredictable ripple effects.
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...e9-922c-64d6b7840b82_story.html?noredirect=on

Nearly every organization Trump has run over the past decade remains under investigation by state or federal authorities, and he is mired in a variety of civil litigation, with the center of gravity shifting from Mueller’s offices in Southwest Washington to Capitol Hill and state and federal courtrooms in New York, the president’s hometown and the headquarters of his company.
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...e9-93d0-64dbcf38ba41_story.html?noredirect=on
 
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Bob001 said:
Taibbi's bottom line is this:


But that's not true at all. There's plenty of gray area. Trump doesn't have to be a paid foreign agent to be shaping American policy to serve his own financial interests. He didn't have to be a paid foreign agent to benefit from Russia deciding that a President Trump would be better for them than a President Clinton, and working toward that end. It's not black and white at all. There's plenty of misconduct, even if it's not prosecutable.
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Putin likely knows about a lot of money laundering that flowed through Trump Organization. And while Trump was telling the public that he had no business deals in Russia, Putin knew he was lying. We don't know what Trump said in most of his meetings with Putin, but Putin does, or he could claim anything at all. We don't know what was said in all those contacts with Russians that trumpers lied about, but Putin does. Stuff like that makes Trump compromised by a foreign power due to his own deceptiveness and dishonesty -- hard to say what it might be worth in "negotiations" -- whether or not there was any collusion.
 
https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1109862447127494656

Ben Wittes: It’s possible Mueller isn't proceeding against certain defendants other than Trump because he referred them to other offices. In this iteration, what's ending isn't the probe, merely the portion of the probe Mueller chose to retain for himself.
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Article embedded in tweet. The conclusion of the article is the same as all measured, reasonable conclusions thus far have been: it's folly to come to a conclusion about the report yet, since we are not in possession of the information to do so.
 
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