The explosive racial question Osaka asked Japan

[Porpoise of Life]

That's rubbish.

Our rugby players do it frequently, so much so, that they forego playing for NZ teams and become Japanese Citizens, and end up playing for The Brave Blossoms (The Japanese National Rugby team).

Well, I think "Playing rugby well enough to be able to play for a national team" might be considered 'difficult'...

 

[baron]

That's rubbish.

Our rugby players do it frequently, so much so, that they forego playing for NZ teams and become Japanese Citizens, and end up playing for The Brave Blossoms (The Japanese National Rugby team).

Your posts have nose-dived into the deep end recently. Terrible.

 

[Puppycow]

Depends what you mean by "fully accepted" in Japanese society. I've been living in Japan for almost 20 years now and I've raised two kids here, both of whom are "hafu". I am reasonably well "accepted" here. I will never be Japanese myself, as I didn't grow up here and have no Japanese blood. I also haven't taken Japanese citizenship although I could theoretically. I don't want to give up my American citizenship. My kids on the other hand have every right to consider themselves Japanese. They don't seem to have any particular trouble making Japanese friends and if they were ever teased at school for being different, I never heard about it. I am at peace with it I guess. It is what it is. I can do all the things I need to do to live a life here, but it does help to have friendly Japanese in-laws for some things.

 

[baron]

Depends what you mean by "fully accepted" in Japanese society. I've been living in Japan for almost 20 years now and I've raised two kids here, both of whom are "hafu". I am reasonably well "accepted" here.

That's good, but where's the bar? If an immigrant is 'reasonably well accepted' in the UK then that would be more likely seen as an indictment of society than a point of acclaim. The question would be, Why are they not fully accepted from day one? You've lived there 20 years and you're still only 'reasonably well accepted'. That's the point I was making.

 

[Ethan Thane Athen]

So you've encountered extraordinarily stupid leftists? Here's a suggestion: Don't try to follow their logic because that is not what guides them.

Or more likely, extraordinarily stupid right wing people who say that left wing people think that...

 

[Puppycow]

That's good, but where's the bar? If an immigrant is 'reasonably well accepted' in the UK then that would be more likely seen as an indictment of society than a point of acclaim. The question would be, Why are they not fully accepted from day one? You've lived there 20 years and you're still only 'reasonably well accepted'. That's the point I was making.

What specifically do you mean? Should they throw a parade in my honor?

 

[baron]

What specifically do you mean? Should they throw a parade in my honor?

How would I know? You said it. You said you were 'reasonable well accepted' after 20 years. If you asked me how accepted I am in my community I'd say fully accepted, no problems. You're the one who equivocated and now you're asking me to explain your statement. That's odd.

 

[p0lka]

Given that I have encountered people who hold that racism is an inherent trait linked to the 'white gene',

Isn't that a form of racism in itself?

 

[Puppycow]

How would I know? You said it. You said you were 'reasonable well accepted' after 20 years. If you asked me how accepted I am in my community I'd say fully accepted, no problems. You're the one who equivocated and now you're asking me to explain your statement. That's odd.

I guess I just don't know what signs to look for that you are "fully accepted" but that's OK. Nobody presents you with a plaque saying "You Are Hereby Fully Accepted In Our Society". Also, I'm a bit of a loner by nature. I don't really want to be out chatting with other people most of the time. There are some Japanese people (most are 100% fully Japanese in every definition of the word) who are afraid to go outside. They call them hikikomori. It's like a kind of social anxiety. I wonder if they feel "fully accepted" even in their own society. But I work for a Japanese company and I commute to work every week day and I've almost never encountered overt hostility. I'm sure that I'm "fully accepted" at my company. But it's hard to really know. I imagine that there are some places in Japan where I would not be welcome, but I must imagine that there are places in the UK that don't care much for foreigners or "outsiders" coming in.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Seriously is "Japan is an extremely homogeneous society" and "The Japanese can be xenophobic dicks sometimes" really blowing anyone's mind? Is this really new information?

 

[ponderingturtle]

People are saying, are they?

You want to discuss the obvious and well-known racism, xenophobia, and jingoistic nationalism in Asia? Or you want this as a gotcha to your imaginary friends?

Angrysoba's already opined on the topic of Japan. I can cover a whole other large part of Asia. Chinese are notoriously racist. The Thais, ditto. Singapore and Malaysia split apart from the Malay Federation because of race. Indonesia seems to rotate which minority they're going to pick on and Myanmar is the current global poster boy for genocide.

So what are those some people saying? Who are they and where do they get their information other than Mama's Basement Theory of Internet Sociology Volume I?

Hell white supremacists hold Japan up as an example of how they want their ethnostate version of the US to work.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Depends what you mean by "fully accepted" in Japanese society. I've been living in Japan for almost 20 years now and I've raised two kids here, both of whom are "hafu". I am reasonably well "accepted" here. I will never be Japanese myself, as I didn't grow up here and have no Japanese blood. I also haven't taken Japanese citizenship although I could theoretically. I don't want to give up my American citizenship. My kids on the other hand have every right to consider themselves Japanese. They don't seem to have any particular trouble making Japanese friends and if they were ever teased at school for being different, I never heard about it. I am at peace with it I guess. It is what it is. I can do all the things I need to do to live a life here, but it does help to have friendly Japanese in-laws for some things.

Are they citizens and given names from the list of proper Japanese names that keeps the 3rd generation Koreans in japan out of citizenship?

https://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/02/news/japanborn-koreans-live-in-limbo.html

"After a decade-long battle, the Supreme Court ruled recently that Chung, the daughter of a Japanese woman and a South Korean man, who was born in Japan and has lived all her life here, could not take the test to become a supervisor at a public health center because she was a foreigner."

So your kids are likely blocked from certain career paths. Unless that has changed lately.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I guess I just don't know what signs to look for that you are "fully accepted" but that's OK. Nobody presents you with a plaque saying "You Are Hereby Fully Accepted In Our Society". Also, I'm a bit of a loner by nature. I don't really want to be out chatting with other people most of the time. There are some Japanese people (most are 100% fully Japanese in every definition of the word) who are afraid to go outside. They call them hikikomori. It's like a kind of social anxiety. I wonder if they feel "fully accepted" even in their own society. But I work for a Japanese company and I commute to work every week day and I've almost never encountered overt hostility. I'm sure that I'm "fully accepted" at my company. But it's hard to really know. I imagine that there are some places in Japan where I would not be welcome, but I must imagine that there are places in the UK that don't care much for foreigners or "outsiders" coming in.

Then there is the fear of while being fully japanese that someone might find out your grandfather was a butcher.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-34615972

"In the corner of a pristine room tucked away in Tokyo's Shibaura meat market is a table topped with a stack of crudely composed hate mail - evidence of a prejudice that dates back to medieval times.

Slaughtermen, undertakers, those working with leather and in other "unclean" professions such as sanitation have long been marginalised in Japan. That prejudice continues to this day and especially for those working in the Shibaura abattoir.

Never mind that the men here are dicing up some of the most expensive and highly prized animals on the planet. This is where Japan's world famous wagyu beef is prepared - prime steaks, shot through with ribbons of fat, that can set you back eye-watering prices."

 

[Puppycow]

Are they citizens and given names from the list of proper Japanese names that keeps the 3rd generation Koreans in japan out of citizenship?

https://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/02/news/japanborn-koreans-live-in-limbo.html

"After a decade-long battle, the Supreme Court ruled recently that Chung, the daughter of a Japanese woman and a South Korean man, who was born in Japan and has lived all her life here, could not take the test to become a supervisor at a public health center because she was a foreigner."

So your kids are likely blocked from certain career paths. Unless that has changed lately.

No, I don't think you fully understand. My kids are in fact Japanese citizens.

Chung, for whatever reason, has chosen not to take citizenship.

Note this sentence:

Japan has softened its attitudes toward the Zainichi, and many have become citizens and taken Japanese names. Others have taken citizenship, but kept their Korean names. Others, like Chung, have taken neither citizenship nor name. Disagreements exist, even within families.

She is legally entitled to take Japanese citizenship, but like me, she does not.

 

[Puppycow]

Then there is the fear of while being fully japanese that someone might find out your grandfather was a butcher.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-34615972

Yeah, and Britain has "Travellers" (aka "Pikeys").

 

[baron]

I guess I just don't know what signs to look for that you are "fully accepted" but that's OK.

I was just querying why you were so equivocal. It's not a response I would make unless I wanted to express a degree of dissatisfaction. And whilst I know you mentioned parades facetiously, we did have a parade of sorts near here to welcome a dozen or so Syrian families to the area.

Nobody presents you with a plaque saying "You Are Hereby Fully Accepted In Our Society". Also, I'm a bit of a loner by nature. I don't really want to be out chatting with other people most of the time. There are some Japanese people (most are 100% fully Japanese in every definition of the word) who are afraid to go outside. They call them hikikomori. It's like a kind of social anxiety. I wonder if they feel "fully accepted" even in their own society. But I work for a Japanese company and I commute to work every week day and I've almost never encountered overt hostility. I'm sure that I'm "fully accepted" at my company. But it's hard to really know.

OK, I find that strange but that's your assessment. To re-iterate, I'm not criticising the Japanese - at all (if I was forced to leave the UK Tokyo would be in my top ten preferred destinations, regardless of whether or not I'd always be the outsider) - I was simply stating that on balance white Western countries are the most accommodating and least racist / xenophobic in the world.

 

[smartcooky]

Your posts have nose-dived into the deep end recently. Terrible.

"And I do believe that you are drunk
But in the morning, I shall be sober"

 

[Giordano]

[snip]

I was simply stating that on balance white Western countries are the most accommodating and least racist / xenophobic in the world.

Hmm... not true. The manifestation, application, intensity, legality, visibility, and nature of racism differ significantly in each different country (and society) in complex ways. Yes, there are certain forms of racism that are less evident in some, or even many Western countries versus non-Western countries. But the reverse is true of other forms of racism and there is no reason to start patting myself on the back for how advanced my country is. Better in some ways; worse in others. We all need a lot of work!

But beyond this, it is the highlight where I think your post most egregiously fails big time and only negates the very statement in which it is embedded.

 

[Apathia]

I don't see any of those things as racist, I'm referring more to the idea that it's very difficult for a non-Japanese to be fully accepted into Japanese society. I must add at this point that I've never been there, so your experience obviously trumps mine, but this is what I've read and heard direct a couple of people who have worked and lived there. (I have worked for Tokyo companies for about six years now but that's remotely so I can't pretend to have gained much insight from that, aside from their efficiency and extreme politeness). Perhaps more pertinently, I'm talking about the attitude to different cultures and behaviours, and that's why I mentioned Japan. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the impression I get is that it's difficult or impossible to ever be completely accepted as a foreigner even if you embrace every aspect of Japanese society, language and culture. If you rock up and behave the same as you did in your own country you will be quickly excluded and isolated (even if you're not told as much to your face). This is not a criticism, however, rather a comparison of Japan with European countries.

And "Gaijin" (outside person) covers more ground than Caucasians, Chinese, and Koreans. I met Japanese Americans (born in the USA) who have lived in Japan for years and still aren't regarded as insiders. And yet again I know a Caucasian woman who married into a Japanese mob (Yamaguchi Yakuza) who gets more respect than I thought possible.

I was happy to be a White Gaijin in the years that I lived in Japan. Being an insider brings picayune social expectations that take a lifetime to learn. As a Gaijin, even though hearts were closed to me, I was given a lot of slack and forgiveness for my ineptitudes. How racist!

 

[Giordano]

Being considered an "outsider" isn't always simple racism. Isn't it difficult for even "white" immigrants and visitors to become assimilated into certain "white" Western cultures such as in Norway? I've also heard similar things about Switzerland. Hey, it took me 25 years to be fully adopted by the locals as a "true" citizen of my small USA college town.

Unfortunately it is true that many people of all kinds can be racist jerks. How this manifests differs in different cultures and different countries. Mapping it onto the prevailing "race" in each culture? A major fail.