Satanic Sculpture at Illinois Statehouse.

[Thermal]

Except all the stuff people like didn't come from Christianity. The parts that aren't secular (nativity) aren't secular. Even Santa is bastardized and barely related to it's source.
Again, the displays in the State building were recognized, by all, as religoius displays. It's why the Menorah is there, which is unrelated to Christmas, to which you have no objection. It had to fight it's way in a couple decades ago, too.

They are religious displays to those displaying them, whether you think so or not.

See, that's the thing: I see the plastic nativity as right on par with a plastic Santa. Sure, if you are Satanist, that might not be your decorating style. But just like the star or angel at the top of a tree, I think it is far less 'religious' than some people assume. I think it has slid along with the name of the holiday to be part of the decor.

For the 'Keep Christ in Christmas' crowd, yes, it will maintain its traditional meaning. Although it seems like a graven image problem to me. Oh,well. To hell they go , then. That will make the Satanists happy for Christmas.

 

[JoeMorgue]

A nativity display is not religious?

Jesus ******* Christ.

It's actually a brilliant strategy. The dominant ideology can just claim their imagery isn't religious it's just social because it's so common.

 

[Thermal]

A nativity display is not religious?

Jesus ******* Christ.

Great example of a demonstrably religious term being secularized! I knew you'd get it in the end.

 

[pgwenthold]

Great example of a demonstrably religious term being secularized! I knew you'd get it in the end.

Right. It's so secularized, that no Christian would consider it taking the Lord's name in vain or anything.

"Hey, don't use the Lord's name in vain around me!"
"That's ok, Jesus ******* Christ is secular."

Yeah, right.

 

[The Greater Fool]

See, that's the thing: I see the plastic nativity as right on par with a plastic Santa. Sure, if you are Satanist, that might not be your decorating style. But just like the star or angel at the top of a tree, I think it is far less 'religious' than some people assume. I think it has slid along with the name of the holiday to be part of the decor.

For the 'Keep Christ in Christmas' crowd, yes, it will maintain its traditional meaning. Although it seems like a graven image problem to me. Oh,well. To hell they go , then. That will make the Satanists happy for Christmas.

You skipped the important issue:

The people that created the displays created and intended them religious displays. How you view them doesn't change that.

 

[Thermal]

Right. It's so secularized, that no Christian would consider it taking the Lord's name in vain or anything.

"Hey, don't use the Lord's name in vain around me!"
"That's ok, Jesus ******* Christ is secular."

Yeah, right.

Nice bob and weave.

We were talking about how something obviously religious could be secularized. You opine that it cannot.

Saying 'oh, God' or Jesus Christ' is a perfect example.

Thanks again. Gold star for ya

 

[Thermal]

You skipped the important issue:

The people that created the displays created and intended them religious displays. How you view them doesn't change that.

Fair point. Except the plastic ones at the Wal-Mart. They were made to hustle cash out of wallets.

Although they might have been civic-minded window dressing for the makers, for all we know.

 

[The Greater Fool]

Fair point. Except the plastic ones at the Wal-Mart. They were made to hustle cash out of wallets.

Although they might have been civic-minded window dressing for the makers, for all we know.

Selling a nativity scene is called commerce. No one is objecting that. At least not I.

Show me a nativity scene used to sell something and I'll show you Christian outcry about using a religious scene for commerce.

 

[Thermal]

Selling a nativity scene is called commerce. No one is objecting that. At least not I.

Show me a nativity scene used to sell something and I'll show you Christian outcry about using a religious scene for commerce.

A Nativity scene is used outside a Church to sell a narrative and lifestyle that ends with forking over 10% of your pay.

QED

 

[Ethan Thane Athen]

Mocking =/= positive for me. The Satanists don't need to stay silent, of course. Just maybe lighten up on the barbed jabs once or twice a year? Pick Dionysus for a sculpture, maybe. I'd drink to that.

But they (supposedly*) worship Satan for giving mankind the gift of knowledge so the sculpture could very easily be viewed as celebrating that rather than mocking Christianity...

For the record, I think it's a great sculpture and I'm no Satanist.

*That's questioning my knowledge, not the depth of their belief...

 

[The Greater Fool]

A Nativity scene is used outside a Church to sell a narrative and lifestyle that ends with forking over 10% of your pay.

QED

Exactly, thanks for acknowledging it is indeed religious.

 

[Thermal]

But they (supposedly*) worship Satan for giving mankind the gift of knowledge so the sculpture could very easily be viewed as celebrating that rather than mocking Christianity...

For the record, I think it's a great sculpture and I'm no Satanist.

*That's questioning my knowledge, not the depth of their belief...

Agreed, it's beautiful and poignant in its meaning.

I don't see how they could be celebrating Christianity while they are cheering what Christians (Jews at the time, really) were ordered by their god not to do.

 

[Thermal]

Exactly, thanks for acknowledging it is indeed religious.

Nope. That's a pure money hustle, just like Wal-Mart.

An actually religious person would not make use of a nativity, I would think. Would seem a little cheesy to their god, right?

 

[The Greater Fool]

Nope. That's a pure money hustle, just like Wal-Mart.

Of course it is. But to them it is religious. I think you are really stretching.

An actually religious person would not make use of a nativity, I would think. Would seem a little cheesy to their god, right?

Of course religious people make use of the nativity. You're pulling my leg now

I applaud the Satanists for displaying their sacred beliefs at this joyous time of year. Beliefs that I share and encourage.

 

[xterra]

Your objection to Santa on the fire truck and wreaths on City Hall is pretty extreme, I would think. Most civic celebratins have their origin in traditions, many religious. The White House Easter Egg Roll, for example.

Easter egg rolls are not the same as spring equinox bison-poop rolls. The symbolism does matter, as does the name.

You would dismantle and defund any display that could have its origin traced back to anything religious, yes?

Defund? In a word, yes, if it is being funded by a government, whether that be federal or state or local. The wall between religion and government should be high and strong and impenetrable.


Dismantle? Not necessarily. Any private person or business or club or organization can do whatever it wants, and pay for it from their non-governmental funds. But every other group must have the same access to public space.

 

[Beelzebuddy]

Nope. That's a pure money hustle, just like Wal-Mart.

An actually religious person would not make use of a nativity, I would think. Would seem a little cheesy to their god, right?

I'm getting the impression that your idea of religion is from one of those hardcore protestant sects where everyone's a dour killjoy, and regard displays like manger scenes as so much frivolity that they can't possibly have religious connotations. If I'm right, suffice it to say your viewpoint is narrow and unrepresentative of the christian community as a whole.

 

[pgwenthold]

I'm getting the impression that your idea of religion is from one of those hardcore protestant sects where everyone's a dour killjoy, and regard displays like manger scenes as so much frivolity that they can't possibly have religious connotations.

Your impression is wrong. The entire goal here is to create whatever fantasy is required in order to justify criticisms of the Satanist's display.

If that means resorting to denying that a nativity is a religious display, then that is what you have to do. Reality doesn't matter.

 

[Thermal]

Of course it is. But to them it is religious. I think you are really stretching.


Of course religious people make use of the nativity. You're pulling my leg now

I applaud the Satanists for displaying their sacred beliefs at this joyous time of year. Beliefs that I share and encourage.

I share and encourage their beliefs as well. Do you think they are meant to be displayed as sacred? I thought you agreed that it was meant as a flip-off?

 

[JoeMorgue]

I share and encourage their beliefs as well. Do you think they are meant to be displayed as sacred? I thought you agreed that it was meant as a flip-off?

I think its by definition no more a "In your face, I can do this and you can't stop me" than the Christian displays they are a response to.

I don't understand (no snark) what you mean by "flip off."

 

[Thermal]

I'm getting the impression that your idea of religion is from one of those hardcore protestant sects where everyone's a dour killjoy, and regard displays like manger scenes as so much frivolity that they can't possibly have religious connotations. If I'm right, suffice it to say your viewpoint is narrow and unrepresentative of the christian community as a whole.

Not at all. I do have tiers of sincerity, though. My bar for what would be sincerely religious is pretty high. Lip service and nominal Christianity bar is pretty low. The low end tosses plastic Jesus around with abandon. The high end is working a soup kitchen.