Satanic Sculpture at Illinois Statehouse.

[The Greater Fool]

You mean like the White House Christmas tree? Are the Devil dudes hanging little skulls on that?

Hey, what is the rotunda at the Nation's Capitol looking like nowadays?

Sorry to tangle threads of thought...

I went back and looked at the original articles and note this statue is placed between a nativity scene and a Menorah. These are not secular items, no where near. Back in the day, the Menorah had as hard a time getting equal time as the Satanists are now. [ETA: Dammit SuburbanTurkey]

The Satanists are not defacing Abrahamic religious displays, nor are they messing with Christmas trees, so why would you think that is a next step?

Your argument about Christmas being centuries basically comes down to "We were here first." The point being made is that no one should have been first, but since the door is now open, everyone is welcome to the party on equal footing.

You seem to believe the Satanist display is not sincere (the spokesman sure seemed sincere).

'But Christmas was here first, so get another day.' Why do only Christians get Christmas? Christmas is mine too, and I think advocating free thought is cool at this time of year.

(Sorry about the paraphrases, I hope I didn't straw man them).

 

[Worm]

I think it could be argued that Christian celebrations were suppressed in their early days. Killing the participants and whatnot.

It certainly could. I suspect that it would also generally be seen as a bad thing...

 

[Thermal]

Thermal,


Your objections remind me of this:


[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=972&pictureid=7428[/qimg]


You don't like the Satanists' message, and you see it as disruptive of a festive season.

You ask if it's wrong to have Santa riding on a fire truck in a parade.



Yes. it's wrong if the "Santanists" aren't paying for the gas the truck uses.

Lights in City Hall -- same thing. If government is paying the electric bill rather than a religious organization paying it, there is preferential treatment of one religion over another one.

Putting up a tree in a city park using city employees and equipment is preferential treatment (maybe of Christianity maybe of paganism -- depends on the decorations on the tree). My tax dollars should not be used to support ANY religion. Neither should yours.

Placing a religious statue in a public space at no cost to the government, and where other religious statues are placed -- that's not preferential treatment.


EDIT - replace any religious symbol and any label on the T-shirt and the message is the same.

But I don't object to their message at all. I've said more than once that I support them and their ideology. I'm just not a big supporter of this SJW tripe of faux inclusiveness. The Devil dudes aren't trying to have their celebrations recognized or included. They just want to slide in to flip the celebrants off. Tacky, that.

Your objection to Santa on the fire truck and wreaths on City Hall is pretty extreme, I would think. Most civic celebratins have their origin in traditions, many religious. The White House Easter Egg Roll, for example. You would dismantle and defund any display that could have its origin traced back to anything religious, yes?

 

[Thermal]

All of this is neither here nor there. The state rotunda has a nativity scene, which is explicitly and unavoidably Christian. It's a literal depiction of the birth of the Christ figure, there's no secularizing that.

Maybe the Satanists would not bother if they only had a Christmas tree. I'm guessing not, since Christmas trees are literally everywhere and they aren't really complaining about those nearly as much.

Disagreed. Trees, Santa, Nativities...it's all the same religious based holiday and it's word games to try to separate them. A plastic lighted nativity is as much a xmas icon as jolly Saint Nick. Dunno about you, but a Nativity to me is a comic-book decoration, much like flying reindeer.

And regarding how literal it is, I think that depiction has been pretty roundly disproven. Completely. In every detail.

There's no way around a Christmas tree as being a distinct symbol of a Christian tradition, full stop. Yes, the whole holiday is secularized now, and I think that's a good thing. Fun for all.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Okay if your argument is that a literal tableau of the birth of the religion's earthy manifestation of God and the very being the religion is named after is "secular" we... have nowhere to go here.

What would be a "religious" display then? The actual Pope in a glass case?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Disagreed. Trees, Santa, Nativities...it's all the same religious based holiday and it's word games to try to separate them. A plastic lighted nativity is as much a xmas icon as jolly Saint Nick. Dunno about you, but a Nativity to me is a comic-book decoration, much like flying reindeer.

And regarding how literal it is, I think that depiction has been pretty roundly disproven. Completely. In every detail.

There's no way around a Christmas tree as being a distinct symbol of a Christian tradition, full stop. Yes, the whole holiday is secularized now, and I think that's a good thing. Fun for all.

I think it's pretty clear that Santa Claus and Christmas trees are much more secular than nativity scenes. God becoming man is a central tenement of the faith, where as magical fat men sliding down chimneys is not. Christians seem to know the difference, with all their whinging about "Reason for the Season, keep Christ is CHRISTmas".

If Christians really didn't see much of a difference, they'd could just take the nativity scene out and leave the tree and likely avoid this whole situation. In fact, most governments do just that. The fact that these select few decide to do otherwise in spite of resistance is telling.

 

[The Greater Fool]

Disagreed. Trees, Santa, Nativities...it's all the same religious based holiday and it's word games to try to separate them. A plastic lighted nativity is as much a xmas icon as jolly Saint Nick. Dunno about you, but a Nativity to me is a comic-book decoration, much like flying reindeer.

And regarding how literal it is, I think that depiction has been pretty roundly disproven. Completely. In every detail.

There's no way around a Christmas tree as being a distinct symbol of a Christian tradition, full stop. Yes, the whole holiday is secularized now, and I think that's a good thing. Fun for all.

I believe you are wrong about the nativity being secular now. I don't see them used in stores, or advertising, except in Christian places that are making a point of being Christian. Christmas trees and Santa, everywhere, largely secular.

 

[TragicMonkey]

What would be a "religious" display then? The actual Pope in a glass case?

'You couldn't do that, Fawlty, because then he couldn't breathe.'
'He could try, Major. He could try.'

 

[Thermal]

Okay if your argument is that a literal tableau of the birth of the religion's earthy manifestation of God and the very being the religion is named after is "secular" we... have nowhere to go here.

What would be a "religious" display then? The actual Pope in a glass case?

You know, you're right. People just spontaneously prostrate themselves before a plastic manger and guard them as priceless relics. I just never noticed.

It's background noise, dude. The whole freaking holiday is religious based, but has slid over to secular while carrying its imagery.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Okay if your argument is that a literal tableau of the birth of the religion's earthy manifestation of God and the very being the religion is named after is "secular" we... have nowhere to go here.

What would be a "religious" display then? The actual Pope in a glass case?

It would have to be something really extreme. How about putting a statue of holy laws on the grounds of the court house?

Oh wait, they've done that and threw a fit when it was removed. These people are not interested in subtlety.

 

[Thermal]

I think it's pretty clear that Santa Claus and Christmas trees are much more secular than nativity scenes. God becoming man is a central tenement of the faith, where as magical fat men sliding down chimneys is not. Christians seem to know the difference, with all their whinging about "Reason for the Season, keep Christ is CHRISTmas".

If Christians really didn't see much of a difference, they'd could just take the nativity scene out and leave the tree and likely avoid this whole situation. In fact, most governments do just that. The fact that these select few decide to do otherwise in spite of resistance is telling.

And I think that would be a good idea. Also the inevitable direction that things are moving. Best for all, except that it is still a religious based holiday, and no tap-dancing about which images are more palatable changes that.

The Final Solution is a banning of Christmas. Retail store failure. Widespread unemployment. Tiny Tim begging in the streets again. Well, we'd have to call him Vertically Challenged Tim. You post-apocalyptic harbingers are scary.

 

[Thermal]

I believe you are wrong about the nativity being secular now. I don't see them used in stores, or advertising, except in Christian places that are making a point of being Christian. Christmas trees and Santa, everywhere, largely secular.

I saw a plastic nativity at Wal-Mart. No creepy hand/snake thingys tho

 

[JoeMorgue]

I saw a plastic nativity at Wal-Mart. No creepy hand/snake thingys tho

Displayed or for sale? Or you gonna act like that wouldn't make a difference?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

And I think that would be a good idea. Also the inevitable direction that things are moving. Best for all, except that it is still a religious based holiday, and no tap-dancing about which images are more palatable changes that.

Doubt it. Not that many people are animated about removing Christmas trees. It's a slippery slope fallacy for the War on Christmas. The ACLU isn't out to assassinate Santa and steal everyone's presents.

Trees and Christmas lights are popular all over the country and won't be leaving anytime soon.

 

[Thermal]

Displayed or for sale? Or you gonna act like that wouldn't make a difference?

Both

 

[Thermal]

Doubt it. Not that many people are animated about removing Christmas trees. It's a slippery slope fallacy for the War on Christmas. The ACLU isn't out to assassinate Santa and steal everyone's presents.

Trees and Christmas lights are popular all over the country and won't be leaving anytime soon.

Agreed. People want to keep everything about it...except where it came from. That's bad to acknowledge.

Better to put on a massive show of pretending it has nothing to do with traditional Christian celebration. Nope, no christianity to see here people. That there is a Holiday Tree. Yep. And ... and... those are random strings of lights. Yep.

People lying to themselves to appear PC is a weird thing.

 

[The Greater Fool]

I saw a plastic nativity at Wal-Mart. No creepy hand/snake thingys tho

Nativity was for sale, undoubtedly. Walmart's religion is money, after all.

You were in the wrong isle for the creepy hand/snake thingies.

 

[The Greater Fool]

Agreed. People want to keep everything about it...except where it came from. That's bad to acknowledge.

Better to put on a massive show of pretending it has nothing to do with traditional Christian celebration. Nope, no christianity to see here people. That there is a Holiday Tree. Yep. And ... and... those are random strings of lights. Yep.

People lying to themselves to appear PC is a weird thing.

Except all the stuff people like didn't come from Christianity. The parts that aren't secular (nativity) aren't secular. Even Santa is bastardized and barely related to it's source.

Again, the displays in the State building were recognized, by all, as religoius displays. It's why the Menorah is there, which is unrelated to Christmas, to which you have no objection. It had to fight it's way in a couple decades ago, too.

They are religious displays to those displaying them, whether you think so or not.

 

[JoeMorgue]

There's just an icky undertone to the whole idea that a dominant ideology in a society could force its imagery into the public sphere and once they become so ubiquitous as to bleed over into the broader secular "pop culture" then use that a defense to keep doing it because now it's not "religious" anymore.

So basically Christianity shoved itself down our throat for so long and just muscled its way into anywhere it wanted to go that parts of it have become embedded in the broader culture and now that's being used against us.

 

[pgwenthold]

A nativity display is not religious?

Jesus ******* Christ.