Satanic Sculpture at Illinois Statehouse.

[Thermal]

I doubt the Satanists had a choice in placement. The article said it was between a nativity scene and a Menorah, so sounds like reasonable placement to me.

Where was the Festivus pole? And are you saying that the sculpture was the centerpiece? Can't wait for the chorus of objections to the favoritism shown. Revolt against the Devil worshipping legislators!

Or maybe it was just being inclusive and mannerly? If so, nevermind

 

[The Greater Fool]

Where was the Festivus pole?

My guess is no one asked to place one.

And are you saying that the sculpture was the centerpiece?

No.

Can't wait for the chorus of objections to the favoritism shown.

My bet is placement was decided by lottery.

Revolt against the Devil worshipping legislators!

We can only hope, and they choose to have no religious displays.

Or maybe it was just being inclusive and mannerly? If so, nevermind

It seemed mannerly and inclusive, if we must have religious displays on State grounds.

Thanks for replying. It was looking like I was going to have to pretend to work for a while.

 

[dudalb]

Decorated trees, wreaths, lights, and Christmas celebrations are so important to the proper observance of Christianity that the devout Puritan Christian founders of my state banned them.

The only real "War Against Christmas" in US History was waged by the Puritans in New England.

 

[Thermal]

I don't understand how you viewed my post as saying they were celebrating Christianity?! I stated it could be viewed as celebrating Satan giving knowledge to humans not mocking Christianity. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Gotcha. They could, but their own self description is that they are non theistic. I would take that to mean that Satan couldn't exist either, being in the whole God paradigm? Might be wrong on that

 

[Thermal]

...Thanks for replying. It was looking like I was going to have to pretend to work for a while.

Yeah, me too. Cold as hell out here. Thinking makes my head burn and warms me up

 

[The Greater Fool]

Yeah, me too. Cold as hell out here. Thinking makes my head burn and warms me up

Uh... no it's not! no it doesn't!

 

[Thermal]

Uh... no it's not! no it doesn't!

Satanists be so rude

Enjoy the season, and may no Fundies beat you with a plastic Jesus

 

[JimOfAllTrades]

If the Satanic based was in celebration and good will, sure. But it's not. It's a flip-off in spite, down to using the Christian symbolism.

In the end, if I'm one the "others" who are not Christian, is the (supposedly) unthinking flip-off the Christians give everyone else any better or worse then a deliberate flip-off? I've been flipped-off anyway.

And does the deliberate flip-off maybe get them to see that (supposedly) unthinkingly minimizing everyone's else's beliefs (or lack thereof) should not get a pass?

 

[Minoosh]

It's an interesting argument. The US Govt, IIRC, had to deal with people gratuitously creating religions that employed drugs in their worship services. Had to effectively 'stop' the traditions from starting.

The government did not "have" to do anything about religions that used drugs in worship services. It failed to prove a compelling interest, according to a unanimous 2008 Supreme Court ruling, according to this Pew Research Center article.

 

[Thermal]

In the end, if I'm one the "others" who are not Christian, is the (supposedly) unthinking flip-off the Christians give everyone else any better or worse then a deliberate flip-off? I've been flipped-off anyway.

And does the deliberate flip-off maybe get them to see that (supposedly) unthinkingly minimizing everyone's else's beliefs (or lack thereof) should not get a pass?

Not sure I follow. I think Xmas celebrants, both pious and heathen, are pretty inclusive in their festivities. Maybe more so than at any other time of year. Does that feel like flipping off to you?

 

[Ethan Thane Athen]

Gotcha. They could, but their own self description is that they are non theistic. I would take that to mean that Satan couldn't exist either, being in the whole God paradigm? Might be wrong on that

From what I remember about them, you are correct but they tend to act as if they do, to make their point. I think there's a 'logical' argument to their supposed POV that Satan is the hero of the bible not the repressive, angry god, hence I could easily see an argument that the statue is a celebration of Satan's great gift of knowledge to man - the inscription says as much

Mind you, I tend to agree it's also a calculated dig, however I have no issue with it. They don't do it generally (ie they don't wander around looking to upset Christians) just in response when, as here, it oversteps into secular areas.

 

[Thermal]

The government did not "have" to do anything about religions that used drugs in worship services. It failed to prove a compelling interest, according to a unanimous 2008 Supreme Court ruling, according to this Pew Research Center article.

I was vaguely recalling a different case, from maybe the 1970's, where people tried to found a religion which had marijuana as its communal snack. The feds said nope, can't create religions that incorporate existing law violations

 

[xterra]

Not sure I follow. I think Xmas celebrants, both pious and heathen, are pretty inclusive in their festivities. Maybe more so than at any other time of year. Does that feel like flipping off to you?

Are you asserting that Christmas celebrants are inclusive of Buddhists, Jews, Jains, Shintoists and Muslims? Do you have non-anecdotal or non-personal evidence for this? Or is it just your impression?


Do you think that your wishing a Muslim "Merry Christmas" feels to that person like "May Allah bless you," or "I am pushing my religion"?



I don't know if you've ever been on the minority side in such a situation, but suppose you were in Saudi Arabia, where no non-Muslim public symbols are allowed, and a Muslim said "May Allah bless you," what would your reaction be?

 

[JimOfAllTrades]

Not sure I follow. I think Xmas celebrants, both pious and heathen, are pretty inclusive in their festivities. Maybe more so than at any other time of year. Does that feel like flipping off to you?

I agree that some Christians are quite inclusive, and are not pushing their religion so much as just wishing everybody to have a good time during a holiday. I have an extremely close friend who is very devoutly Christian, but also an extremely nice, very intelligent guy who would not push his religion on anyone or hold it against them if they believe differently.

But not all. I know (and worked with) people who if you responded to them saying "Merry Christmas" by saying "Happy Holiday" they would be miffed, would think that you were trying to "rob Christmas of it's meaning", and would keep a grudge against you for that.

In other words, some Christians still believe very strongly that the default behavior should always be Christian oriented because the USA was "founded as a Christian nation". If you're not Christian, well you can suck it up because "we can't oblige every little belief", and "it's just secular ceremonialism".

And that type of thinking goes on year round, not just at holidays. These Christians think everyone should go along with the Christian way of doing things just because. They are, knowingly or not, giving the finger to non-Christians all the time. Giving them a knowing finger back may make some pause and think why.

 

[Thermal]

Are you asserting that Christmas celebrants are inclusive of Buddhists, Jews, Jains, Shintoists and Muslims? Do you have non-anecdotal or non-personal evidence for this? Or is it just your impression?

Of course its my impression. What type of evidence would you require? Do you think I will provide a self reported questionnaire from secular celebrants worldwide? Or perhaps surveillance video analyzed by social psychologists? Serious question.

Do you think that your wishing a Muslim "Merry Christmas" feels to that person like "May Allah bless you," or "I am pushing my religion"?

Who said that? I would use a different well-wish if in doubt, but most Muslims I know in the states celebrate a secular Christmas, so I'd feel fine with that.

I don't know if you've ever been on the minority side in such a situation, but suppose you were in Saudi Arabia, where no non-Muslim public symbols are allowed, and a Muslim said "May Allah bless you," what would your reaction be?

Okay, this had to be a set-up question because of how obvious the answer is, but I'll play along.

I would be most flattered to be included in a celebration and its well-wishing, much as I am warmed by being included in Spanish conversations on my job sites, despite my butchered Spanglish. There is no way I would ever interpret any blessing or greeting in a negative light. Good vibes are good vibes.

 

[Thermal]

I agree that some Christians are quite inclusive, and are not pushing their religion so much as just wishing everybody to have a good time during a holiday. I have an extremely close friend who is very devoutly Christian, but also an extremely nice, very intelligent guy who would not push his religion on anyone or hold it against them if they believe differently.

But not all. I know (and worked with) people who if you responded to them saying "Merry Christmas" by saying "Happy Holiday" they would be miffed, would think that you were trying to "rob Christmas of it's meaning", and would keep a grudge against you for that.

In other words, some Christians still believe very strongly that the default behavior should always be Christian oriented because the USA was "founded as a Christian nation". If you're not Christian, well you can suck it up because "we can't oblige every little belief", and "it's just secular ceremonialism".

And that type of thinking goes on year round, not just at holidays. These Christians think everyone should go along with the Christian way of doing things just because. They are, knowingly or not, giving the finger to non-Christians all the time. Giving them a knowing finger back may make some pause and think why.

I guess the problem is that I genuinely don't run across these hostile types, so it comes across as some abstract theoretical problem. Last week I got to wish one of my He-bros a Happy Chanukah. It was a good feeling to share that, even though its not what I celebrate (not even clear on what it is, something about remarkable fuel efficiency). I pretty much see everyone enjoying the season, stress excepted. Never got the impression that it was bring forced on anyone unwillingly, although I take your word for it that it does hapoen

 

[xterra]

Of course its my impression. What type of evidence would you require? Do you think I will provide a self reported questionnaire from secular celebrants worldwide? Or perhaps surveillance video analyzed by social psychologists? Serious question.




Who said that? I would use a different well-wish if in doubt, but most Muslims I know in the states celebrate a secular Christmas, so I'd feel fine with that.



Okay, this had to be a set-up question because of how obvious the answer is, but I'll play along.

I would be most flattered to be included in a celebration and its well-wishing, much as I am warmed by being included in Spanish conversations on my job sites, despite my butchered Spanglish. There is no way I would ever interpret any blessing or greeting in a negative light. Good vibes are good vibes.

I think I can respond to your reply to my questions (or is that "reply to your responses to my questions"?) all together.

Our experiences clearly affect our perspective. It appears to me that your perspective is that of someone who was raised in some sort of Christian or mostly Christian majority community where you weren't subjected to prejudice.

My perspective is that of a man now in my mid-70s, a member of a religio-ethnic minority who grew up in an era and region where multiculturalism was an exotic concept, if it was even known. There was casual prejudice against people who weren't Christian, weren't white, weren't of WASP or Western European descent. At times, the level of prejudice rose beyond that depending on which group was the one being discriminated against.

I don't personally know any Muslims who celebrate a secular Christmas. I do know a few Jews who do, because their families contain non-Jews.

I have felt varying reactions to being told "God bless you," depending on circumstances and the person saying it. In some instances I have seen it as condescending, in others simultaneously condescending and more benevolent (in the sense that the speaker is actually asking his "superior" deity to bless me), and in others conventional (in the sense that the speaker doesn't actually mean it literally).


I have lived in Spanish-speaking countries, where almost all the inhabitants were Catholic and could not conceive of people having any other religion. In that situation, my reaction to "que Dios te bendiga" was the same as yours.




EDIT: I have said all on this subject that I need to say.

 

[Senex]

Did you hear what happened to the dyslexic Satanist who created the statue?


He sold his soul to Santa.

 

[Beelzebuddy]

Did you hear what happened to the dyslexic Satanist who created the statue?


He sold his soul to Santa.

His dog told him to.

 

[The Norseman]

And that's my point. Christianity has thrown its weight around and shoulder it's way into so much stuff that to use the "it's become standard" argument is kind of a problem.

So basically your argument is "The minority side has been drowned out by the majority side which proves the majority side is safely the default so the minority side doesn't get to shout louder because that's petty."

Same thing happened with the "traditional" prayer opening of every session of congress/etc. --- when legally challenged, the only answer given was "well, we've always done it so we're gonna keep doing it even if it really is against the constitution. Amen." I'm only surprised the various states haven't leaped upon that excuse time and again in order to keep thrusting Xianity down our collective throats via governmental sanction.