Cont: The Trump Presidency X: 10-10 'til we do it again

[phiwum]

Oh Jesus Christ are we still on about this?

You don't mail explosives to people to scare them. You mail a pipe full of sand with a kitchen timer glued to it to people if you want to scare them.

You mail explosives to people if you want to kill them. How competent you are at bomb making doesn't change this.

One of the bombs had ball bearings in it. How does that fit into the "They were just meant to scare them?" narrative.

Tell you what. If anyone is still having a problem with this go rob a bank with a fake gun. When you get out of prison you can update us on how it worked out for you.

Robbing a bank with what appears to be a gun is undeniably armed robbery.

If these bombs were designed so that they were intended to go off, then the sender is guilty of attempted murder (or assault, depending on how dangerous such bombs are, but let's presume murder).

If they were designed to maximize the threat without actually intending to deliver the explosion, he's guilty of a lot, but not necessarily attempted murder. Just as if I point and fire my toy gun during the robbery, I'm still guilty of armed robbery (because perception of others matter), but I'm not guilty of attempted murder[1].

[1] if the guard "returns" fire and another person is killed, I'm guilty of felony homicide in many locales.

 

[phiwum]

The presumption is these cases has always been that the threat was real - during trial, mitigating circumstances might be discussed.

I don't think this is true.

But if you can provide evidence in favor of your claim, I'll concede the point. I think that for attempted murder to be alleged, the assailant must have good reason to think death will result. Otherwise, a lesser charge is surely more reasonable.

Again, give me some evidence and I'll consider it.

The fact that Trump&co. have managed to invert this is mind-blowing.


We don't know why the bombs didn't explode - at this point we have no reason to assume that they were never meant to.
from VOX:

But in any case, he send explosives through the mail. endangering everyone along the transport chain. Depending on how the packages were handled and what the reaction had been upon discovery, they could have cost lives due to panic, bad disposal methods etc.
Treating this as anything but an actual attack is simply unprecedented.

Never suggested it wasn't an actual attack. I said that it's possible it's not an attempted assassination, if the fella didn't actually intend the bombs to go off. There are plenty of other crimes that he could be accused of, many of which count as an attack.

So, you seem not to be reading my posts or are keen on kicking ass on a straw man.

 

[phiwum]

Better, bring a loaded gun to a Trump rally. I guarantee you will not get anywhere near to the point where you could take a shot, but it would still be considered an assassination attempt

Not at all clear to me. I reckon we'll have to wait and see.

There are plenty of crimes more plausible that one would be charged with in that circumstance. Have you any evidence at all that anyone who has brought a loaded gun to a rally has been charged with an assassination attempt? Or that the rules have recently changed?

 

[phiwum]

If you aren't bright enough to make one bomb right, you very well may make 14 bombs wrong. Be glad he's not the Unabomber.

It's totally possible. Though, the fact that all 14 went wrong suggest that intentional failure is seriously possible, too.

Again, not laying odds one way or the other. I trust the FBI.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Robbing a bank with what appears to be a gun is undeniably armed robbery.

If these bombs were designed so that they were intended to go off, then the sender is guilty of attempted murder (or assault, depending on how dangerous such bombs are, but let's presume murder).

If they were designed to maximize the threat without actually intending to deliver the explosion, he's guilty of a lot, but not necessarily attempted assault. Just as if I point and fire my toy gun during the robbery, I'm still guilty of armed robbery (because perception of others matter), but I'm not guilty of attempted murder[1].

[1] if the guard "returns" fire and another person is killed, I'm guilty of felony homicide in many locales.

Oh for...

If I take a real gun with real bullets and real gun-power and a real firing pin, point it at you and pull the trigger I'm still guilty of attempted murder if I'm so stupid I loaded it wrong and it jams and doesn't fire.

Stop trying to make a mass assassination attempt into a "prank."

 

[WilliamSeger]

I don't think this is true.

But if you can provide evidence in favor of your claim, I'll concede the point. I think that for attempted murder to be alleged, the assailant must have good reason to think death will result. Otherwise, a lesser charge is surely more reasonable.

Again, give me some evidence and I'll consider it.

For almost all crimes, the prosecutor has to prove intent, so I believe you're correct. In that 1954 attack on the Capitol that JoeMorgue mentioned, the woman said she only fired into the ceiling and the jury believed her, so she was not convicted of attempted murder.

 

[Dr. Keith]

Oh for...

If I take a real gun with real bullets and real gun-power and a real firing pin, point it at you and pull the trigger I'm still guilty of attempted murder if I'm so stupid I loaded it wrong and it jams and doesn't fire.

Stop trying to make a mass assassination attempt into a "prank."

Does that change if you removed all the primers intentionally?

 

[Paul2]

I said that it's possible it's not an attempted assassination, if the fella didn't actually intend the bombs to go off.

I think the quote up-thread from the FBI saying that these devices were not hoax-bombs removes your "if" clause. The FBI has concluded that the devices were intended to explode. They were attempted assassinations.

 

[acbytesla]

That was like a scene from a dystopian movie where the camera might have zoomed back to show the guards pointing guns.

Except what's really pathetic is there weren't guns pointed at them. This was a bunch of people who sold out on day one.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Does that change if you removed all the primers intentionally?

the burden of proof lies with the bomb maker.

 

[Ladewig]

I knew we were in very big trouble when in The first cabinet meeting pretty much all the cabinet heads took turns praising him. It was the most bizarre thing I ever saw. It told me very clearly that they were chosen because of their ass kissing skills. This wasn't the group of people who would speak truth to power.

They may have accepted the jobs because they thought they could do good things when President Trump wasn’t looking. Or perhaps they, like some senators, thought that when they were behind closed doors with him, they could become the Trump-whisperer and lead him in the right direction.

Or perhaps they were foolish enough to believe that “the pivot” was coming - that moment when the president said, “yeah, I was a dick during the primaries and the election, but that is behind us, let’s get to work.”

 

[dudalb]

It'a been said in the past that Trump thinks he can run his administration like one of his businesses, but he has never been a CEO, answerable to a Board of Directors, which is closer to the structure of the government. At the moment, his "Board" is dominated by sycophants who won't tell him that he's running the "business" into the ground. Replacing some of these "board members" with different people could have an impact.

THIS.
The way Donnie ran his company has nothing in common with the way most companies operate.
I get a little angry when some on the left point to Trump as a typical American BUsinessman...hoping to discredit all American Businessmen.

 

[Dr. Keith]

the burden of proof lies with the bomb maker.

Agreed. I was replying to Joe's hypo, though.

Either way, this was an act of terrorism and should be punished harshly as such.

 

[dudalb]

They may have accepted the jobs because they thought they could do good things when President Trump wasn’t looking. Or perhaps they, like some senators, thought that when they were behind closed doors with him, they could become the Trump-whisperer and lead him in the right direction.

Or perhaps they were foolish enough to believe that “the pivot” was coming - that moment when the president said, “yeah, I was a dick during the primaries and the election, but that is behind us, let’s get to work.”

That istoo close to what a lot of the German leaders who made Hitler Chancellor in 1933 thought for comfort. They thought once in office, Hitler would calm down and they could control him.They were wrong.

 

[autumn1971]

Fake News CNN -- the least trusted name in news.

“Least trusted” by fascist sub-human scum is an honor.
Actual patriots at arming ourselves against the one party state.

 

[jimbob]

It's totally possible. Though, the fact that all 14 went wrong suggest that intentional failure is seriously possible, too.

Again, not laying odds one way or the other. I trust the FBI.

Design failure is also a possibility.

 

[dudalb]

The chief Rabbi of the Tree Of Life Syngogue in Pitssburg denounced violent political rhetoric today. Although he did not name names, pretty clear he had Trumpy in mind.
SOme doubt now that Trump will be asked to visit the synagogue.

 

[acbytesla]

I think the quote up-thread from the FBI saying that these devices were not hoax-bombs removes your "if" clause. The FBI has concluded that the devices were intended to explode. They were attempted assassinations.

That's law enforcement. I would expect them to say that. Let's say they were totally fake and only were designed to scare and not intended to kill. It really doesn't matter. It still constitutes enough felonies that Sayoc is not likely to ever get out of prison. The charges already filed and attempted murder is not among them are punishable by 48 years in prison. And there will be more charges.

 

[ponderingturtle]

It's totally possible. Though, the fact that all 14 went wrong suggest that intentional failure is seriously possible, too.

Again, not laying odds one way or the other. I trust the FBI.

Why they are part of the deep state trying to frame Trump for this?

Bombs are not easy to make and mail bombs even harder. So as they were likely all made at the same time why isn't faulty design a real issue?

 

[ponderingturtle]

That's law enforcement. I would expect them to say that. Let's say they were totally fake and only were designed to scare and not intended to kill. It really doesn't matter. It still constitutes enough felonies that Sayoc is not likely to ever get out of prison. The charges already filed and attempted murder is not among them are punishable by 48 years in prison. And there will be more charges.

Hell it doesn't even matter if they are so incompetantly made that they couldn't blow up. See the Times Square bomber.