Atheists destroy churches, attack the faithful

Never fear, I don't think atheism is a club either! Nor did I ever say anything about superiority. You really must stop reading into other's posts like that, you'll do a lot better around here.

Atheism is a lack of belief in god. Period. You don't have to be convinced that there is absolutely no way there is a god, you are even allowed to be afraid you might be wrong. But if you don't believe in god, you're an atheist. Even if some folks want to take away your atheist card for not disbelieving hard enough.


It's a good attempt to make it seem as if I'm akin to Life of Brian's: "you'd have to really hate the Romans!"
However, you twist and turn Squeegee's description of his grandfather's passing to make it fit your tale: What he was afraid of was not that he might be wrong about there not being a God. He was not a doubting atheist at that point. He was afraid that his former atheism might have upset the God, whom he obviously believed in at that point: "the one thing he was terrified of was that God was angry with him for abandoning his faith."
This is a far cry from a doubting Christian on his deathbed thinking, 'But what if there is no God and all my renunciations in this life were in vain?!'
 
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Squeegee's grandfather was terrified that his lack of belief might be wrong.


No, that was not what he was afraid of: "the one thing he was terrified of was that God was angry with him for abandoning his faith."
That doesn't mean he began believing again.


So let us get this straight: He didn't believe in God! He was just afraid that the God he didn't believe in was angry with him for not believing in Him?!

Yeah, that's a totally different story! Tell that one to your grandchildren, wareyin.
 
Sounds like you are saying that atheism is the state religion of atheist countries like China.

Oh boy! ya done done it now!

No, Communism as proclaimed is the state religion. It is a religion that has prophets but no deity.
 
Never fear, I don't think atheism is a club either! Nor did I ever say anything about superiority. You really must stop reading into other's posts like that, you'll do a lot better around here.

Atheism is a lack of belief in god. Period. You don't have to be convinced that there is absolutely no way there is a god, you are even allowed to be afraid you might be wrong. But if you don't believe in god, you're an atheist. Even if some folks want to take away your atheist card for not disbelieving hard enough.


You have to admit some guys are really, really, good at reading the stuff between the lines. Really awe inspiring!:rolleyes:

I'm with you about atheism and nobody is going to take away my atheist card.:mad:
 
Could you tell us a little more about these "forces of history" and how they were "revealed to Marx"?
I was as surprised to hear Das Kapital described by TBD as the "Atheist Bible," as I think TBD was to find out that it hardly contains anything at all about atheism and church burnings, and that the few times that church burnings are actually mentioned, Marx doesn't seem to approve of the practice.
So could you please enlighten us about this similarity between religion and the writings of Karl Marx? I would also like to know more about the Communist "paradise" that you mention. It's another thing that I never noticed when I read Das Kapital, so if you have the director's version of the book, the one that didn't edit out the passages about the Garden of Eden, I would very much like to borrow it.

I was thinking specifically of official Communism under the Soviet Union.

Where Communism was going to be achieved in the future.

I would argue that it was wrapped in the language of Communism and had used this to act as a state religion.

That is different to, say subscribing to Marxist economic or political theory.

And Chinese State Communism is really far from that - possibly in some ways further than the USSR was. Chinese State Communism is highly capitalist.
 
So we can add mind reader to your impressive resume now can we?

No, not really. It's called observation, not mind reading.


OK so let's unpack this shall we?

- You make a comment about there being no instructions in the Quran about flying planes into buildings.

- I point out there are lots of writings in said book inciting people to violence, although not specifically about flying planes into buildings, which is understandable given the lack of aeroplanes at the time of Mohamed. The odd flying horse or two but no jumbos.

- I also point out the Quran promises rewards for those who die fighting for the cause of promoting Islam.

- You then respond with the comment that other causes, including Christianity, encourage martyrdom also.

:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

Don't you see what a pathetic argument this is? :boggled:
 
I just googled it as well. I concede that there are some uses of the phrase specifying thoughtfulness. However, you really ought to include whim, or random when you are searching for the phrase. Context will make it clear that whimsy, randomness or capriciousness (another word to include with "pick and choose" googling) is commonly understood to be inherent in "pick and choose". Next time, perform a more thorough inspection before declaring victory, my friend.

Hmm? Inherent? No. Many of the definitions make that perfectly clear, no less. Picking and choosing can be done whimsically. There was never any argument against that. The counterargument was that it does not need to be done whimsically and, in fact, it clearly wasn't being used in that way at the place in question. That's the crux of the matter. You're demanding that it needs to be whimsical and, when presented with evidence that it does not need to be such, you're asking me to restrict the allowed evidence to only the information that confirms that it can be used like that and throw out the evidence that it does not need to be? Wow. That's a dishonest restriction.



Except, when one doesn't half-ass one's search, normal usage becomes a bit more clear.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Thank you for the laugh.


Interesting assertions. Do you consider, say Saudi Arabia or Iran to be fundamentalist Christian? Because my claims also apply to them.

You're really, really bad at paying attention to what's being said, eh? Both by yourself and others.

Oh, (you are now thinking) fine, wareyin was talking about fundamentalist Abramic religions.

AHAHAHAHAHA! Again, thank you for the laugh.

Very well, is Hillary Clinton an example of a fundamentalist Christian to you? I ask because I'm sure you, with your vastly better reading comprehension and all, have surely noticed that she and her religion have been brought up in this thread, and my claims also apply to her. I mean, if you are using some definition of Christian that is so skewed as to view mainline Methodists as fundamentalists, then I can see how you might think the way you do.

eta: Also, it appears your reading comprehension may have failed you again. Following back through my conversation with dann, a normal reader might be able to see who brought up Christians, and that normal reader might apply my continued insistence that I was not talking only about Christians as a sort of "context" to my claims. There is a reason I used "believer" rather than Christian, after all.

Yeah, seriously, take a step back and pay attention. It's not even worth dignifying the rest of this with a response after how clearly you showed off how wrong-headed you were being at the beginning and failed to fix it after you finally understood that it was wrong-headed.


Well son of a gun, you do realize my claims apply to more that just fundamentalist Christians! Progress!

Progress for you. It should have been quite clear the whole time. Good job, though! You can accept some of the obvious, even if it didn't convince you to go back to what you had written already and remove or alter the parts that were clearly springing forth from your misunderstandings.



You have limited the available evidence you have considered in order to crow about how wrong I am. Whether that is intentional, or simply because your reading comprehension perhaps isn't as good as you think, I don't know.

No. Amusingly enough, you're dishonestly trying to limit the available evidence to only that which you think confirms your claim. And I'm very much going to keep poking at your reading comprehension, yes, when you're failing at the basics of such. Those basics include paying attention to what you, yourself, actually said, and what the responses to them actually said.
 
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We are mostly in agreement. I think the word terrified is the issue. Terrified to me indicates a genuine concern that there may be real after-death consequences to how he lived his life. I have a hard time considering that to be atheism.

My first reaction when I read Squeegee's post was to think how awful it must have been at the moment of death to be so terrified about something so irrational.

kellyb and I did touch on this a little bit, honestly. Part of how a number of religions work is basically brainwashing... and undoing that brainwashing is generally a very unpleasant process that can take years of pointed effort. Emotional triggers are frequently buried pretty deeply, after all. One can certainly no longer actually believe in any gods and still have those triggers remaining. "If I'm wrong and there is that god and it's angry at me..." is plenty to trigger being terrified, honestly, if one didn't manage to completely remove triggers like that. A general fear of the unknown and the end seizing upon that as a more concrete example of what there might be to fear is hardly a surprise.
 
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We are mostly in agreement. I think the word terrified is the issue. Terrified to me indicates a genuine concern that there may be real after-death consequences to how he lived his life. I have a hard time considering that to be atheism.

My first reaction when I read Squeegee's post was to think how awful it must have been at the moment of death to be so terrified about something so irrational.

I agree that it must have been awful. But, we're humans. We're mostly irrational.



I'll see if I can get dann to give you one he took from another atheist.
 
Hmm? Inherent? No. Many of the definitions make that perfectly clear, no less. Picking and choosing can be done whimsically. There was never any argument against that. The counterargument was that it does not need to be done whimsically and, in fact, it clearly wasn't being used in that way at the place in question. That's the crux of the matter. You're demanding that it needs to be whimsical and, when presented with evidence that it does not need to be such, you're asking me to restrict the allowed evidence to only the information that confirms that it can be used like that and throw out the evidence that it does not need to be? Wow. That's a dishonest restriction.

My, my, for someone who keeps bragging about his reading comprehension, you just keep failing at the basics, don't you? What part of common understanding is confusing you? Yes, you found some dictionary definitions which stipulate that thoughtfulness is required. I then pointed out a very easy way for you to verify that thoughfulness is not required, and rather the opposite, that people use phrases such as "it would seem capricious for God to pick and choose". Or "If the Justice Department can just throw in the towel whenever a law is challenged in court, it can effectively pick and choose which laws should remain on the books. That’s not a rule of law I recognize. That’s a rule by whim. And it scares me./'
When common usage like that indicates that "picking and choosing" seems capricious, or at whim, even on issues which should be deliberated on, then common understanding seems to associate pick and choose with whimsy. You can stomp your feet and pretend context changes it, but you don't have the fig leaf of dann's claims of picking and choosing beliefs being "clearly" or "obviously" any more worthy of serious thought that the Justice Department's rule of law.





AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Thank you for the laugh.
Again, had you actually read for context you might have gotten the point that despite your dictionary definitions, it's pretty common for people to think "pick and choose" means "at whim" or "being capricious" rather than with thoughtfulness. But, you just knew better, so why bother to check, right? (now I'm wondering if you are going to be one of those people who denies that how people actually use and understand words has more bearing on their definition than a dictionary does)




You're really, really bad at paying attention to what's being said, eh? Both by yourself and others.



AHAHAHAHAHA! Again, thank you for the laugh.



Yeah, seriously, take a step back and pay attention. It's not even worth dignifying the rest of this with a response after how clearly you showed off that you have no idea what you're talking about at the beginning and failed to fix it after you finally understood that it was wrong-headed.




Progress for you. It should have been quite clear the whole time. Good job, though! You can accept some of the obvious, even if it didn't convince you to go back to what you had written already and remove or alter the parts that were clearly springing forth from your misunderstandings.





No. Amusingly enough, you're dishonestly trying to limit the available evidence to only that which you think confirms your claim. And I'm very much going to keep poking at your reading comprehension, yes, when you're failing at the basics of such. Those basics include paying attention to what you, yourself, actually said, and what the responses to them actually said.

Given that you repeatedly claimed that I was talking about small subsets of fundamentalists when I was not, I'm not very needled by your ineffective poking. I do grok why you don't want to dignify evidence that you are wrong (moderate Christians that also fit in with what I was talking about) with a response. It's pretty hard to claim victory successfully after such a flaw in your argument has been shown, so I won't think too badly of you for not being able to pull it off this time. Care to try again?
 
No, that was not what he was afraid of: "the one thing he was terrified of was that God was angry with him for abandoning his faith."



So let us get this straight: He didn't believe in God! He was just afraid that the God he didn't believe in was angry with him for not believing in Him?!

Yeah, that's a totally different story! Tell that one to your grandchildren, wareyin.

As I noticed before, stuff like this shows a general lack of familiarity with people who have (or in this case had) faith. Read Aridas' post for a good explanation of how you may be wrong.
 
So you're regressing to your initial mistake of accusing me of a "general lack of familiarity with people who have (or in this case had) faith." Good luck with that!

I did read Aridas's post about you, but I don't have his patience:

Amusingly enough, you're dishonestly trying to limit the available evidence to only that which you think confirms your claim. And I'm very much going to keep poking at your reading comprehension, yes, when you're failing at the basics of such. Those basics include paying attention to what you, yourself, actually said, and what the responses to them actually said.


When it becomes as obvious as in your case that you aren't even trying to understand, I give up.

In the case of what Aridas has to say about Squeegee's grandpa, I agree with the part about indoctrination: You don't just go from fearing God to not doing so in a day or two:"that can take years of pointed effort," in particular, when you have been trained to fear Him. You may have nightmares about your abusive father - even twenty years after he died. The memory of the fear you experienced in childhood lives on on an emotional level. (The nightmares from my own childhood didn't stop until I was in my late 30s, and my psycho mother died when I was 18.)

But in this case, I don't think that Aridas takes Sqeegee at his word: "the one thing he was terrified of was that God was angry with him for abandoning his faith."What Sqeegee described was not a "general fear of the unknown." It was a fear of God specifically, and that's why I think that Squeegee's grandfather's change of attitude wasn't the realization that there is no god - that would sink in in the course of 70 years - but rather the spiteful defiance against the God that allowed WWI to happen (or maybe even: made it happen).

I could easily imagine other scenarios: dementia eating its way into the rational layers of the mind of a 90-year-old, for instance, but that is also not what Sqeegee described, and I would rather respect Squeegee's description of what happened than begin to make things up, even though Sqeegee doesn't think that I do.
 
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OK so let's unpack this shall we?

- You make a comment about there being no instructions in the Quran about flying planes into buildings.

- I point out there are lots of writings in said book inciting people to violence, although not specifically about flying planes into buildings, which is understandable given the lack of aeroplanes at the time of Mohamed. The odd flying horse or two but no jumbos.

- I also point out the Quran promises rewards for those who die fighting for the cause of promoting Islam.

- You then respond with the comment that other causes, including Christianity, encourage martyrdom also.

:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

Don't you see what a pathetic argument this is? :boggled:


So much like TBD, who is willing to believe every word uttered by Xi, you would rather believe the handful of Muslim Johns who claimed that Allah ordered them to fly planes into buildings than the 1.8 billion muslims who claim that the Quran says no such thing.

Don't you see what a pathetic argument that is?


(Our one local, homegrown Islamic terrorist martyr wasn't particularly religious, but at 22 he had managed to screw up his life and chose to go out with a bang rather than with a whimper.

The other prominent Danish Muslim fundamentalist, Storm, converted from juvenile delinquent to outlaw biker (Bandidos), to Muslim fundamentalist, to double agent for the Danish Intelligence Service and CIA, to a harsh and embittered critic of the Western intelligence Agencies.
What motivates guys like these is beyond me, but it has very little to do with the Quran ...)
 
We are discussing the actual on-going human rights abuses in China where:

Authoritarian + atheist = anti-religious suppression.
Really? Why is it that you are so scared to deal with your popes support for the Chinese regime? What are you afraid of?

Suggesting that other groups in other places does not contradict what I have been explaining in this thread about the actual human rights abuses in China.
But your pope is not supporting "other groups". Your pope is supporting the Chinese right now.

I have explained repeatedly that this "authoritarianism" derail is simply whataboutism.
But your pope doesn't mind at all.

Authoritarian CCP + Official atheist CCP = anti-religious suppression in China.
And you are complicit in it.
 
I was thinking specifically of official Communism under the Soviet Union.

Where Communism was going to be achieved in the future.

I would argue that it was wrapped in the language of Communism and had used this to act as a state religion.

That is different to, say subscribing to Marxist economic or political theory.

And Chinese State Communism is really far from that - possibly in some ways further than the USSR was. Chinese State Communism is highly capitalist.


Yes, it's very different from Das Kapital (1867) - also language-wise. Usually, the people who come up with that stuff have read nothing by Marx but The Communist Manifesto (1848), and they know as much about his critique of political economy as TBD knows about The Atheist Bible. :)
They might even agree with TBD's perception of Marxist criticism of religion: that it's a question of repressing religion out of people - even though nothing could be further from the truth if you compare it with what Marx actually said.
 

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