Elagabalus
Philosopher
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I did wonder why we were talking about Feminism for the last few pages when River has already stated his view here:
Just one big derail, I guess.
Split Thread Conservative Voices (Split from Muller Investigation)
- Thread starter River
- Start date
I did wonder why we were talking about Feminism for the last few pages when River has already stated his view here:
Just one big derail, I guess.
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
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Not only that, but causes and movements are where leadership and policies and electoral power arise from.
The "fiscal conservative" (lol) right has always known this. Somewhere along the way, everyone else seems to have forgotten it.
Again because a lot of people don't see any political topic as the topic but as just one battle in a broader "Us V Them" ideological battle.
Now if we take a step back and be honest I'd wager all of us do this every once in a while, see a topic we're not interested in as a topic as a chance to get a cheap shot in on "the other side." We're human, we've all done once in a while.
It's just become the default place practically all of our political discussions take place at where even if the topic is "Is Water Wet?" nobody is actually discussing the actual facts of surface viscosity of bonded dihydrogen monoxide molecules but fighting a proxy war to erode the "Left" or the "Rights" credibility just a little bit.
Now if we take a step back and be honest I'd wager all of us do this every once in a while, see a topic we're not interested in as a topic as a chance to get a cheap shot in on "the other side." We're human, we've all done once in a while.
It's just become the default place practically all of our political discussions take place at where even if the topic is "Is Water Wet?" nobody is actually discussing the actual facts of surface viscosity of bonded dihydrogen monoxide molecules but fighting a proxy war to erode the "Left" or the "Rights" credibility just a little bit.
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
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Yeah. I'm sure I'm guilty, too. As self-identifying skeptics especially, we should all work to at least try to exercise some self control and not do that.
Venom
Philosopher
In other words, **** purity tests.
Delvo
Дэлво Δε&#
When what X has been doing is so thoroughly obvious (possibly even something that's already been pointed out repeatedly before) that there's just no possible way X doesn't already know, and then when Y calls X on it, X demands explanations... in that situation, for Y to bother to explain X's own behavior to X would just be playing into X's childish little game of pretending that there's anything mysterious about it and it could even possibly have been innocent in the first place. For Y to explain the ridiculously, utterly obvious problems with X's original actions/words could even be seen as implying that Y seriously thinks X might actually not get it, which mean Y is the one who doesn't get how comprehensively obvious it is (otherwise Y would have no reason to bother explaining it), which would be nothing but a trap X was trying to set for Y to walk into by acting as if there could possibly ever have been any doubt about any of this in the first place.
But I'll play along in this case just for the sake of example, since there are now some people who seem to want to make this phenomenon itself the new subject. One person said that the "pussy" costumes don't make feminism look good. Others responded to that with various forms of accusation that that comment about the costumes is misogyny and an intention to oppress women.
Now, how could anyone, especially the people who were doing it themselves, seriously not understand what that behavior was? It's impossible. There's just no way that pretending not to get it could possibly be anything but another round of the same old wildly dishonest childish game from the people who did that in the first place. So why would they ever expect The Enemy whom they've decided to treat this way to bend to their demands about it when they're the ones who brought the interaction down to such a level to start with?
It's the proverbial pigs (from that expression about not wrestling with pigs) rolling around in mud, hearing someone comment that they're rolling in the mud, and then demanding that the observers jump in the mud with them.
River
Illuminator
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IMHO you're over thinking it. Dressing up as genitals when you want to be thought of as more than that -- It's not a good image when you want the topic to be taken seriously. Also, the nude screaming, same thing. This might discourage some more serious minded individuals from supporting feminism. Opinions may vary.
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
And you’re oversimplifying by conflating protest with debate. Context matters.
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader, TLA Dictator
Opinions do vary but you're determined to die on this particular cross. Sometimes doing the outrageous is what's needed. I think "Slut Walk" is a very good example. And I think the pussy hats worked. Both got a shed load of attention. I was a personal acquaintance with one of the guys who sprinkled dollar bills down over the NY SE trading floor. Did he upset Wm.Buckley and David Rockefeller so they got the press to write him up as a craze-o? Sure, but he got a lot of attention in the hinterlands at a time when attention was what was needed. The words of the peace movement were limited to campuses and the remnants of the Ban The Bomb movement(we co-opted the peace symbol from them). He got on the network primetime news.
There have been many examples of what your sensitivities probably consider "a bit over the top, what?" but they've worked. The famous shots of armed black men announcing the formation of the Black Panther Party? Jerry and Abbie and the Yippies? Lady Godiva? John and Yoko and the sleep-in for peace? All this stuff worked. We created consternation and pandemonium for brief moments on crowded city streets and the PTB felt so threatened by it that they over-reacted (as always intended). I'm pretty sure Mrs. McAvoy in Dubuque was tsk tsking away as the cops were bashing heads of crazed hippie fanatics in Grant Park. We were licking our wounds and remember to shout, "The Whole World is Watching! The Whole World is Watching!"
The Shrike
Philosopher
(bolding mine) Please do not conflate seriousness with openness. As I explained upthread, the more outrageous the demonstration the more likely I am to explore the issue seriously because someone was willing to take an extreme measure to get me to pay attention to it.
If you think that you are serious because a silly costume offends you then that implies that you think the rest of us who aren't offended can't be serious about the issue. Perhaps not your intention, but untrue either way.
Beelzebuddy
Penultimate Amazing
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Before they can seriously consider you, they first have to consider you.
River
Illuminator
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Okay and?
We're in the information age and have been for a while now. Stop pretending "Oh I can find someone online, at a protest, or on a college campus who professes Opinion X is a stupid, outrageous, unfair, mean, unreasonable, or out of normal manner" means anything.
We need to face facts here people... the internet has ruined arguments. Every single possible opinion, way of arguing, argumentative tactic, argumentative style, and every other possible both spirit and rule of communicating an idea in any context or method has been tainted by some taintwaffle somewhere.
Everything from broad political dynasties to fandoms to social movements to your opinion about whether Wheat Thins or Triscuits are the superior snack cracker has an ******* supporting it. Deal with it.
The internet is the best thing that ever happened to people who don't want to change their mind because find can always an example of a "bad" person to justify why the other side is wrong.
Great. You found a video of showy pretentious douchebag of a feminist. Here's your cookie. It means nothing.
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader, TLA Dictator
Can I get you your pills? Is you face freezing over?
I think it's become apparent no one's going to convince you of anything. Your mind is made up.
So you don't like pussy hats.
You don't like naked women screaming to get attention.
I take it you see nothing of any value in salacious works like The Female Eunuch or, heaven forbid, The Vagina Monologues ("Maud! He said that word again!")
You don't think any of these things aid in spreading a message? Have you thought that perhaps they aren't going to spread the message TO YOU, and that a whole lot of other people actually did get something out of them.
This is actually really good news. Now all I have to do is find an example of a "bad" person who holds an opinion to discredit it. And since the internet is an exception worshipping outrage machine that also displays porn and cat pictures, the hard work is done for me.
Man everyday I'm just told I can think more and more stuff at random and come up with a justification after the fact. A lot easier then all that thinking I used to have to do.
Man everyday I'm just told I can think more and more stuff at random and come up with a justification after the fact. A lot easier then all that thinking I used to have to do.
River
Illuminator
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- 4,962
You don't pay attention to details. I've said the pussy hats were genius, and a great example of capitalism. I'm in favor of feminism. I'm also in favor of it having a good image or reputation, and to be taken seriously as a topic. I'm quite sure many feel the same as myself on this topic.
You may want to know that I support feminism. I dislike the imagary and mockery that displays like pussy costumes and nude screaming bring with it. I will never think it's a positive step for feminism to do these type of things with the idea that it somehow helps the cause. It doesn't IMHO. It damages it.
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
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- Messages
- 39,490
IMHO You're over reacting.
Few people who are sincerely entertaining feminist positions like pay equity, reproductive freedom and freedom from sexual oppression are going to say 'I don't think those things are good' because a small number of women dressed up as vaginas.
I've seen crazier costumes at every gay pride parade, comic-con and Mardi Gras parade.
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I reject the premise. When I read River's complaints, I scrolled up to see what posts may have got his undies bunched. Re-reading did not help clear things up one bit.
Man I wish 99% of threads in this place didn't come to a screeching halt while one person dies to defend a hill that is nothing more than a distinction without difference.
"No opinion is held by only good people. Pointing that out is neither an attack on nor a meaningful criticism of that opinion."
Does anyone disagree with that? Can we move on please? The universe will not tear itself asunder if we leave one hair unsplit I give everyone my word.
"No opinion is held by only good people. Pointing that out is neither an attack on nor a meaningful criticism of that opinion."
Does anyone disagree with that? Can we move on please? The universe will not tear itself asunder if we leave one hair unsplit I give everyone my word.
Delvo
Дэлво Δε&#
Feminism's problem isn't just the fact that the lunatics obsessed with their own genitals exist. It's that a more rational alternative version of it doesn't seem to.
Just in the last few days, I got a few more of the usual routine feminist memes on FaceBook. Why does my browser's spellchecker still not recognize that word?
1. A handy list of "rape prevention tips" consisting entirely of variations on "don't rape": claiming that it's just automatic that of course we all would and have never before been told not to.
2. A claim that women aren't allowed to get tubal ligation until they've had some kids and gotten their husbands' permission while men are allowed vasectomies at any time because only men have control of their own bodies: falling for this would require somehow never having met any of the people who are examples that both of its claims are false: women who had the surgery without those conditions, and men whose doctors wouldn't do it until they had a form signed by both the patients and their wives.
3. A claim that men's allegations of abuse by priests when they were kids are taken seriously because they're male while women's allegations of sexual assault when they were younger are met with "skepticism, criticism, and death threats": not only false because the priest abuse claims were ignored and dismissed for years (while rapes were being prosecuted all along, even if not consistently) and the latter part also attributes a few people's behavior to our whole society, but also ignoring other inconvenient facts like that the reaction to priests still ignores any other abusers of male victims and sexual assault on male victims becomes a ******* joke in our society if the victim happens to have been too old.
That's just the last couple of days. But it's been carrying on like that for so long that it had already inspired me to do a little experiment by a few years ago, simply recording every single example of a member of either sex saying anything about the other sex, or anything that I'd seen treated as sexist before, that came across my FaceBook feed from January 1ˢᵗ to February 13ᵗʰ (posted on the 14ᵗʰ). In those 44 days, this was the result:
People tell us we're supposed to ignore the loonies & haters and just pay attention to the reasonable points somebody somewhere is supposedly making, but this is what we keep constantly getting bombarded with. It's not just a couple of isolated fringe cases.
Just in the last few days, I got a few more of the usual routine feminist memes on FaceBook. Why does my browser's spellchecker still not recognize that word?
1. A handy list of "rape prevention tips" consisting entirely of variations on "don't rape": claiming that it's just automatic that of course we all would and have never before been told not to.
2. A claim that women aren't allowed to get tubal ligation until they've had some kids and gotten their husbands' permission while men are allowed vasectomies at any time because only men have control of their own bodies: falling for this would require somehow never having met any of the people who are examples that both of its claims are false: women who had the surgery without those conditions, and men whose doctors wouldn't do it until they had a form signed by both the patients and their wives.
3. A claim that men's allegations of abuse by priests when they were kids are taken seriously because they're male while women's allegations of sexual assault when they were younger are met with "skepticism, criticism, and death threats": not only false because the priest abuse claims were ignored and dismissed for years (while rapes were being prosecuted all along, even if not consistently) and the latter part also attributes a few people's behavior to our whole society, but also ignoring other inconvenient facts like that the reaction to priests still ignores any other abusers of male victims and sexual assault on male victims becomes a ******* joke in our society if the victim happens to have been too old.
That's just the last couple of days. But it's been carrying on like that for so long that it had already inspired me to do a little experiment by a few years ago, simply recording every single example of a member of either sex saying anything about the other sex, or anything that I'd seen treated as sexist before, that came across my FaceBook feed from January 1ˢᵗ to February 13ᵗʰ (posted on the 14ᵗʰ). In those 44 days, this was the result:
- 8 cases of women sharing images/videos lecturing men about how we should behave, including some that contradict each other, or come with threats about how badly women are entitled to respond if we don't do what they want, or even suggest suicide for men, or are just bizarrely arbitrary & unrelated to masculinity or relationships with women (such as that they'd hatefully/dismissively judge us by obscurities like which kind of transmission our vehicles have);
- 6 cases of women "joking" about dumping their men to somehow save some money or taking a "vacation from" them, or treating it as funny for a woman to have screaming yelling fits at her man over nothing;
- 1 case of a woman sharing a video treating all men who see it as would-be rapists who actually need to be told not to casually rape at the slightest opportunity;
- 6 other accusations against men in general about either abusing & mistreating women or just being stupid;
- 2 women having a conversation about how much they hate nice, friendly men and what a sex-obsessed, friendship-faking, demeaning, demanding, semi-rapist monster a man must be if he wants anything more than friendship with a female friend;
- 4 cases of women praising femininty in general or themselves for being shining examples of it;
- 1 case of a woman telling men what kind of women to be attracted to and what it means is wrong with us if we aren't;
- 0 cases of anybody saying the equivalent of any of those 7 things above with the sexes the other way around
- 0 cases of women saying anything positive/appreciative about their husbands or boyfriends;
- 2 cases of men saying positive/appreciative stuff about their wives
- 11 cases of women (married in 7 cases) sharing pictures/videos of certain famous men with built-in captions or embedded text full of sexual comments about those men, to which they added their own enthusiastic comments about how much they wish they could have those men and how no other man could ever measure up;
- 1 case of a man sharing, without comment, a picture of a famous woman with a caption announcing that it was her birthday
- 1 case of a woman sharing an image that says men complain excessively when we're sick;
- 0 cases of men complaining about being sick;
- 4 cases of women complaining about being sick
People tell us we're supposed to ignore the loonies & haters and just pay attention to the reasonable points somebody somewhere is supposedly making, but this is what we keep constantly getting bombarded with. It's not just a couple of isolated fringe cases.
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