Cont: The Trump Presidency IX: Nein, Nein!

[Paul2]

A question from the distance:
How Trump is possible? Are Americans like him?

A clarification:
I ask this without any hint of anti-Americanism. The model “Trump” is only American in the surface. The world is full of terrible politicians. Less “brilliant”, sure. But the surface is also the message.

Trump's support has stabilized at about 40% overall. That means that 40% of Americans don't see him as a danger to so many fundamentals of U.S. society and politics. And that means that, once Trump is out of the White House, we will still have to deal with 40% of the country that thinks the way they do, and which style of thinking didn't let them see Trump for what he was.

THAT'S a problem. That part of the populace and electorate has been coalescing for a few decades, but Trump's presidency has defined them and gathered them together in a way such that it will take a lot to un-define them and remove the political influence they now enjoy.

 

[Bob001]

A question from the distance:
How Trump is possible? Are Americans like him?

A clarification:
I ask this without any hint of anti-Americanism. The model “Trump” is only American in the surface. The world is full of terrible politicians. Less “brilliant”, sure. But the surface is also the message.

Very few accurate generalizations can be made about "Americans." The country was settled at different times in different geographic areas by different ethnic groups with different religious and cultural histories. There have always been tremendous gaps among Americans based on race, wealth and education, and often race has been used by the rich to play poor whites and blacks against each other and their common interests. Young urban professionals in NY and LA have more in common with each other than with factory workers and rural farmers in their own states. Etc. It's pretty clear that Trump succeeded by appealing to the worst instincts of both people who feel that the changing economy has left them behind, and people who have well-treated by the current economy and fear losing what they have to changes on the horizon.

Here are authors who divide America into competing cultural regions:

The Nine Nations of North America

https://www.amazon.com/Nine-Nations-North-America/dp/0380578859

American Nations: A History of the Eleven Rival Regional Cultures of North America

https://www.amazon.com/American-Nat...&qid=1535387596&sr=1-1&keywords=colin+woodard

So, which "Americans" do you mean?

 

[Safe-Keeper]

Trump's support has stabilized at about 40% overall. That means that 40% of Americans don't see him as a danger to so many fundamentals of U.S. society and politics. And that means that, once Trump is out of the White House, we will still have to deal with 40% of the country that thinks the way they do, and which style of thinking didn't let them see Trump for what he was.

THAT'S a problem. That part of the populace and electorate has been coalescing for a few decades, but Trump's presidency has defined them and gathered them together in a way such that it will take a lot to un-define them and remove the political influence they now enjoy.

After the election, they also lost the "I only support Trump because Clinton is even worse" excuse they had during the election campaign.

Trump isn't disconcerting, there are indeed lots of bullies and wannabe tyrants like him. What is very disconcerting is, as you say, how he can act the way he does without everyone turning their backs on him . He shouldn't even have been able to make it to presidential candidate.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Very few accurate generalizations can be made about "Americans." The country was settled at different times in different geographic areas by different ethnic groups with different religious and cultural histories. There have always been tremendous gaps among Americans based on race, wealth and education, and often race has been used by the rich to play poor whites and blacks against each other and their common interests. Young urban professionals in NY and LA have more in common with each other than with factory workers and rural farmers in their own states. Etc. It's pretty clear that Trump succeeded by appealing to the worst instincts of both people who feel that the changing economy has left them behind, and people who have well-treated by the current economy and fear losing what they have to changes on the horizon.

Here are authors who divide America into competing cultural regions:

https://www.amazon.com/Nine-Nations-North-America/dp/0380578859


https://www.amazon.com/American-Nat...&qid=1535387596&sr=1-1&keywords=colin+woodard

So, which "Americans" do you mean?

That even predates independence. A lot of colonies started up from persecuted religious sects oppressed in the old world Their yearning for religious freedom gave way to unceremoniously stamping out other interpretations in the new world. Point being they each developed customs and perspectives they jealously guarded from each other.

 

[LSSBB]

Trump's support has stabilized at about 40% overall. That means that 40% of Americans don't see him as a danger to so many fundamentals of U.S. society and politics. And that means that, once Trump is out of the White House, we will still have to deal with 40% of the country that thinks the way they do, and which style of thinking didn't let them see Trump for what he was.

THAT'S a problem. That part of the populace and electorate has been coalescing for a few decades, but Trump's presidency has defined them and gathered them together in a way such that it will take a lot to un-define them and remove the political influence they now enjoy.

I think that underlying problem is not limited to Trump supporters or Republicans. I see no reason based on current available evidence to assume that all non-Trump supporters would accept someone similar to Trump who happens to align to their politics. I believe, based on my experience with other Americans of all political persuasions, that the Presidency in the American popular mind is not defined as a position to "represent the best leader available for America", but rather a tool to enact their favorite political positions. Feel free to disprove my view.
I myself see the Presidency more as a position where the best leader is needed (of course, using my own definition of a good leader), regardless of political bent. Aside of why I felt he was a good leader candidate at the time, I am probably one of the few at the time Republicans in the country who voted for Ralph Nader in 2000, then John Kerry in 2004.

 

[ponderingturtle]

That even predates independence. A lot of colonies started up from persecuted religious sects oppressed in the old world Their yearning for religious freedom gave way to unceremoniously stamping out other interpretations in the new world. Point being they each developed customs and perspectives they jealously guarded from each other.

Please, they wanted freedom to practice their religion, that always included persecuting others. Like how being a catholic was illegal in the Massachusetts bay colony despite it being set up for "Religious Freedom".

It wasn't until around 1800 well after the constitution that they legalized catholic clergy in the state. Before that being caught being a priest enough times was a hanging offense.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Please, they wanted freedom to practice their religion, that always included persecuting others. Like how being a catholic was illegal in the Massachusetts bay colony despite it being set up for "Religious Freedom".

It wasn't until around 1800 well after the constitution that they legalized catholic clergy in the state. Before that being caught being a priest enough times was a hanging offense.

I don't disagree in the least.

 

[Slings and Arrows]

Trump Tweets

"The Fake News Media worked hard to get Tiger Woods to say something that he didn’t want to say. Tiger wouldn’t play the game - he is very smart. More importantly, he is playing great golf again!"

“Well, I’ve known Donald for a number of years,” Woods said. “We've played golf together. We've had dinner together. I've known him pre-presidency and obviously during his presidency.”

“He's the President of the United States. You have to respect the office. No matter who is in the office, you may like, dislike personality or the politics, but we all must respect the office,” Woods said during a news conference just after the final round of the US PGA Northern Trust tournament.

 

[dudalb]

“Well, I’ve known Donald for a number of years,” Woods said. “We've played golf together. We've had dinner together. I've known him pre-presidency and obviously during his presidency.”

“He's the President of the United States. You have to respect the office. No matter who is in the office, you may like, dislike personality or the politics, but we all must respect the office,” Woods said during a news conference just after the final round of the US PGA Northern Trust tournament.

DOyou burn candles before a picture of Trump every Morning?

 

[dudalb]

Trump's support has stabilized at about 40% overall. That means that 40% of Americans don't see him as a danger to so many fundamentals of U.S. society and politics. And that means that, once Trump is out of the White House, we will still have to deal with 40% of the country that thinks the way they do, and which style of thinking didn't let them see Trump for what he was.

THAT'S a problem. That part of the populace and electorate has been coalescing for a few decades, but Trump's presidency has defined them and gathered them together in a way such that it will take a lot to un-define them and remove the political influence they now enjoy.

But then you get into the issue of how many of that 40% are DIe Hard Trump Supporters, and how many would support anybody in the White House with a "r" after his name.

 

[ponderingturtle]

But then you get into the issue of how many of that 40% are DIe Hard Trump Supporters, and how many would support anybody in the White House with a "r" after his name.

Well clearly it is not about free trade and balanced budgets that get their support of the R.

 

[Paul2]

I think that underlying problem is not limited to Trump supporters or Republicans. I see no reason based on current available evidence to assume that all non-Trump supporters would accept someone similar to Trump who happens to align to their politics. I believe, based on my experience with other Americans of all political persuasions, that the Presidency in the American popular mind is not defined as a position to "represent the best leader available for America", but rather a tool to enact their favorite political positions. Feel free to disprove my view.

The problem with Trump supporters beyond their and their party's policy positions - which are bad enough, for sure - is the anti-democratic tendencies, involving the free press, independence of the judiciary, support for the separation of powers, respect for Senate traditions (Garland nomination), etc. Sure, some non-Trump supporters would let their leader get away with some of the same; but, there would certainly be a large percentage - I'd bet greater than the Never Tump Republicans - who would be against similar anti-democratic tendencies from a Democratic leader.

On top of that, though, the Democratic party has shown nothing like the tribal and un-thinking tendencies, which have led us to our current situation, that the Republicans have over the last 40 years, so the odds of a Democratic leader going as far as Trump has gone, so quickly, are pretty small, wouldn't you agree?

 

[Paul2]

But then you get into the issue of how many of that 40% are DIe Hard Trump Supporters, and how many would support anybody in the White House with a "r" after his name.

I think the fraction of that 40% who is not a die-hard Trumpist at this point is pretty small, given everything Trump has done, and that it is becoming very clear that there is no bottom past which he would not go.

 

[dudalb]

The problem with Trump supporters beyond their and their party's policy positions - which are bad enough, for sure - is the anti-democratic tendencies, involving the free press, independence of the judiciary, support for the separation of powers, respect for Senate traditions (Garland nomination), etc. Sure, some non-Trump supporters would let their leader get away with some of the same; but, there would certainly be a large percentage - I'd bet greater than the Never Tump Republicans - who would be against similar anti-democratic tendencies from a Democratic leader.

On top of that, though, the Democratic party has shown nothing like the tribal and un-thinking tendencies, which have led us to our current situation, that the Republicans have over the last 40 years, so the odds of a Democratic leader going as far as Trump has gone, so quickly, are pretty small, wouldn't you agree?

But I see the same thing starting to grow in the Democratic party. They seem to have formed their own version of the Tea Party of Hard Line ideologues,and I see quite a bit of pure tribalism on this thread from some "Progressives".
No, the Democrats are not as bad as the GOP, but they could very easily become so.
I alos think you are lumping all Trump voters togethere ,which is a mistake.

 

[dudalb]

I think the fraction of that 40% who is not a die-hard Trumpist at this point is pretty small, given everything Trump has done, and that it is becoming very clear that there is no bottom past which he would not go.

And I disagree, I think you have quite a few of that 40% who support Trump with reservatations. I know a couple.

 

[Trebuchet]

Why should I respect the office? Trump clearly doesn't.

 

[BobTheCoward]

“Well, I’ve known Donald for a number of years,” Woods said. “We've played golf together. We've had dinner together. I've known him pre-presidency and obviously during his presidency.”

“He's the President of the United States. You have to respect the office. No matter who is in the office, you may like, dislike personality or the politics, but we all must respect the office,” Woods said during a news conference just after the final round of the US PGA Northern Trust tournament.

Incredibly stupid. The role of president is simply just an elected position. That does not warrant any intrinsic respect. The president signs some laws and has specific functions in government. That does not make them my leader.

 

[ponderingturtle]

And I disagree, I think you have quite a few of that 40% who support Trump with reservatations. I know a couple.

Once he gets the news in line and purges the executive their fears will fall away.

 

[dudalb]

Trump briefly lowered the flag to half staff for McCain at the White House then quickly sent it up again. What a totally contemptable human being.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Trump briefly lowered the flag to half staff for McCain at the White House then quickly sent it up again. What a totally contemptable human being.

Look he just like senators who don't die in office. Like he likes pilots who don't get shot down.