Where is the Common Ground?

[WilliamSeger]

I actually can answer that. They literally don't know how harmful it is. They really think there's more discrimination against white folks nowadays. They think black people have access to all kinds of government benefits white people don't have access to, and other beliefs like that which make the occasional klan rally seem like not a big deal to them.

That's a fair point -- but then it requires a lot of seemingly willful ignorance.

 

[WilliamSeger]

No question. But it's not really a coincidence that Republicans are frequently described by Democrats as 'selfish' and Republicans refer to Democrats as 'bleeding hearts'. Which do you think is more likely to being 'empathetic'?

Don't hear "bleeding hearts" much anymore -- mostly it's "social justice warriors" who are just "virtual signaling."

 

[Ziggurat]

No question. But it's not really a coincidence that Republicans are frequently described by Democrats as 'selfish' and Republicans refer to Democrats as 'bleeding hearts'. Which do you think is more likely to being 'empathetic'?

I'm not sure you'll like my answer.

 

[Ziggurat]

The evidence is that they first nominated and then elected Trump. I rest my case.

Your case is illogical and unsound. Among other problems, caring about things isn't a binary proposition.

 

[phiwum]

I'm not sure you'll like my answer.

How is that an answer to the question of "which group tends to be more empathetic?"

There are two groups in question here. The GOP and the Democrats. An answer would involve picking one and perhaps explaining why.

 

[Ziggurat]

How is that an answer to the question of "which group tends to be more empathetic?"

It isn't. It's an indicator of why he might not like my answer.

 

[acbytesla]

I'm not sure you'll like my answer.

I think your citation proves my point. The logic of Republican/Libertarian philosophy is that concerns for others is counterproductive. It's pure Aynd Rand philosophy. It's the Fountainhead and When Atlas shrugged. It's searching for both a reason for why they are so blessed in their position and why they shouldn't share. It's the Reverend Thomas Malthus argument that feeding starving people is wrong as they will only breed to create more starving people.

 

[kellyb]

I think your citation proves my point. The logic of Republican/Libertarian philosophy is that concerns for others is counterproductive. It's pure Aynd Rand philosophy. It's the Fountainhead and When Atlas shrugged. It's searching for both a reason for why they are so blessed in their position and why they shouldn't share. It's the Reverend Thomas Malthus argument that feeding starving people is wrong as they will only breed to create more starving people.

Word!

There's some serious embracing of Ebeneezer and the "Bah, humbug. Let them die and decrease the surplus population!" thing going on.

I was once mentioning a homeless woman to a libertarian, and he blamed her for being homeless, because she had a moral obligation to "sell her body" (prostitute) to improve her situation and had not done so.

 

[kellyb]

Fundamentally, "they" (the more "elite" rightwingers) seem to prefer chaos to intervention, because they don't want to be taxed to help anyone else. And that's it, at the core. Everything else is mental gymnastics to justify that selfish instinct.

 

[Ziggurat]

I think your citation proves my point. The logic of Republican/Libertarian philosophy is that concerns for others is counterproductive.

Wow, way to misinterpret that link.

It's pure Aynd Rand philosophy.

No. The problems with empathy (which isn't synonymous with concern for others) is empirically demonstrated psychology. Your straw man attempt at a refutation demonstrates one of its fundamental flaws: it makes you respond emotionally rather than logically.

 

[Ziggurat]

Fundamentally, "they" (the more "elite" rightwingers) seem to prefer chaos to intervention, because they don't want to be taxed to help anyone else. And that's it, at the core. Everything else is mental gymnastics to justify that selfish instinct.

Now you're getting the hang of this thread! All blame, no search for a common ground.

 

[kellyb]

Now you're getting the hang of this thread! All blame, no search for a common ground.

You were just answering that question about empathy with a "empathy is overrated, anyway" type answer, right?

 

[Ziggurat]

You were just answering that question about empathy with a "empathy is overrated, anyway" type answer, right?

Empathy is overrated. That's pretty damn obvious, if you actually look at the objective evidence.

But I don't see what that has to do with the post you just quoted, unless you're under the mistaken impression that I think this problem is unique to one side. Hell, if you had paid attention you might have noticed I never indicated how big a problem it is to begin with. I'm not the one who brought up empathy hoping to prove a partisan point.

 

[jimbob]

I know you believe that or wish to contend that both sides are equally responsible but that is never actually true. Frankly, until this President I see few differences between the parties on foreign policy. Different politicians might have different perspectives, but it isn't party specific.

On domestic policy it pretty much comes down to social engineering. How do we deal with the poor and the middle class?

The GOP position pretty much takes its inspiration from Ayn Rand, Adam Smith and Gordon Gekko. The view is that selfishness is inevitably good for everyone. By assisting the poor we are being counterproductive. That we are taking away their incentive to do for themselves. The best remedy for poverty is for the government to get out of the way and resist the attempt to help.

Democrats OTOH, see the inherent unfairness of the economic system and see that the every man for himself leads to a good quality of life for only a select few. That government involvement is not only good but necessary. If there is an inspiration for Democrats, it would have to be John Rawls and his Original Position and the veil of ignorance.

These two positions are so diametrically opposed that finding common ground is pretty much an impossibility.

That is unfair on Adam Smith, who was against trade cartels

 

[kellyb]

Empathy is overrated. That's pretty damn obvious, if you actually look at the objective evidence.

It's grossly under-rated. Look at Norway compared to the US for a very stark contrast that demonstrates how nutty the US-specific allergy to empathy is!

But I don't see what that has to do with the post you just quoted, unless you're under the mistaken impression that I think this problem is unique to one side. Hell, if you had paid attention you might have noticed I never indicated how big a problem it is to begin with. I'm not the one who brought up empathy hoping to prove a partisan point.

I'm just seeing you refuse to answer the simple question:

But it's not really a coincidence that Republicans are frequently described by Democrats as 'selfish' and Republicans refer to Democrats as 'bleeding hearts'. Which do you think is more likely to being 'empathetic'?

It's an easy question to answer, because you must know on some level that the American right has been embracing ruthlessness and cold-heartedness and selfishness as virtues since the 1930's, at least.

 

[kellyb]

That is unfair on Adam Smith, who was against trade cartels

Yes. And when he talked about "free markets", he was talking about free from economic rents. He was also opposed to even assembly lines because he thought it would make human life miserable to work under those conditions.

Most rightwingers who think of him as "one of their own" haven't even read ANY of The Wealth of Nations.

 

[Ziggurat]

It's grossly under-rated. Look at Norway compared to the US for a very stark contrast that demonstrates how nutty the US-specific allergy to empathy is!

I see no evidence that Norway is more empathetic than the US.

Once again, empathy is not synonymous with concern for others.

I'm just seeing you refuse to answer the simple question:

Indeed, Democrats are likely to be more empathetic than Republicans. Which also means they are more illogical, more prone to be swayed by emotions, more prone to ignore unintended consequences, and actually less tolerant of people with different views.

It's an easy question to answer, because you must know on some level that the American right has been embracing ruthlessness and cold-heartedness and selfishness as virtues since the 1930's, at least.

You need this to be true, don't you? Because if your adversaries aren't the caricatures you believe them to be, everything comes crumbling down.

It isn't merely that you can't find common ground, it's that you mustn't find common ground.

 

[jimbob]

Yes. And when he talked about "free markets", he was talking about free from economic rents. He was also opposed to even assembly lines because he thought it would make human life miserable to work under those conditions.

Most rightwingers who think of him as "one of their own" haven't even read ANY of The Wealth of Nations.

I reas a copy with a foreword by Gordon
Brown, who was unsuited to being a prime minister, and over enamoured with complex fiscal tools but generally one of the better Chancellors in my opinion

 

[kellyb]

Indeed, Democrats are likely to be more empathetic than Republicans. Which also means they are more illogical, more prone to be swayed by emotions, more prone to ignore unintended consequences, and actually less tolerant of people with different views.

There's research demonstrating that empathy makes people intolerant?

You need this to be true, don't you? Because if your adversaries aren't the caricatures you believe them to be, everything comes crumbling down.

It isn't merely that you can't find common ground, it's that you mustn't find common ground.

No, I desperately wish it were not true. If it were not true, I would hold out hope that republican elites could be persuaded by evidence to seriously consider things like single payer healthcare and lifting the cap on social security and criminalizing torture.

I get absolutely no joy out of my diagnosis of selfish and sadistic rot in the heart of the party's policy elites.

 

[3point14]

I think this is relevant here: