Where is the Common Ground?

[Oystein]

You should mostly ignore what he says, yes. What he does is a different matter, but you don't need to read his tweets to follow that.

Bollocks. Utter and dangerous bollocks.

What a President does for a job is saying things.

 

[Oystein]

WilliamSeger appealed to Dan Rather. ...

No, he *credited* Rather, which is the courteous thing to do if you recreate someone else's brainchild.

 

[Oystein]

Motte and bailey. If people accept Dan Rather's authority, then that was what was intended all along. And if not? "I didn't really mean for you to consider Dan Rather. I just mentioned him because reasons."

...

Bollocks.

 

[Foolmewunz]

Apparently, since this has turned into the traditional tit-for-tat bickering, the answer to the OP is that there is no common ground.

I'll try to establish a base line from the left. I can find common ground with fiscal conservatives who break from Trump and the monster that the Tea Party and Alt-Right have made of the Republican Party.

I don't guarantee I agree with them on everything (well, on anything) but I can at least discuss things with them.

With Trumpistas? I don't think there's anything to discuss any longer. They are beyond hope. With Trump apologists? Pretty close to the same thing. There's a bit more hope (but just a bit) for the conservatives who run away from the Trump name/brand but still think it's their duty to run interference for him because he's the de facto leader of the party that represents their faction.

 

[jimbob]

"Wacky Omarosa, who got fired 3 times on the Apprentice, now got fired for the last time. She never made it, never will. She begged me for a job, tears in her eyes, I said Ok. People in the White House hated her. She was vicious, but not smart. I would rarely see her but heard....

While I know it’s “not presidential” to take on a lowlife like Omarosa, and while I would rather not be doing so, this is a modern day form of communication and I know the Fake News Media will be working overtime to make even Wacky Omarosa look legitimate as possible. Sorry!"

Can you imagine what would have happened if Obama or Bush had said something this retarded? And this is just example A in the ongoing **** show.

How can anyone take a Trump supporter seriously? What common ground does an intelligent person have with these people?

It really shows how good a judge of character he is.

 

[jimbob]

Dan Rather. Criticizing other people for lost credibility.

I gather that Dan Rather isn't very credible, then.

In which case it is indeed ironic that the POTUS is less credible.

 

[jimbob]

So he's crossed the line for you. Do you expect him to cross back? Now that he's crossed, do you care about how many times he crosses it again?

What new information do you gain by continuing to pay attention to everything he says? Is he actually saying anything new? Do you hope to accomplish something by listening to him? What do you think that will be?

Maybe, he will eventually cross the line for someone else.

Maybe he'll start admitting to crimes on Twitter

 

[dudalb]

It's hard to have common ground with a Personality Cult, since a Personality Cult if founded on the idea that Dear Leader Is Right, and to oppose or criticize him in any way is Evil.

 

[jimbob]

well said Dudalb.

Of course, several will complain that you are saying mean things about them.

 

[dudalb]

I think a couple of the Trump supporters here are not True Belivers in Trump but Mickey Mouse Republicans....they will support anybody in the White House who is a Republican. They would support any Republican the same way they are supporting Trump. With the hard core members of the Personalty Cult, it's Trump or nobody.

 

[ahhell]

I think a couple of the Trump supporters here are not True Belivers in Trump but Mickey Mouse Republicans....they will support anybody in the White House who is a Republican. They would support any Republican the same way they are supporting Trump. With the hard core members of the Personalty Cult, it's Trump or nobody.

My sense is that they would not defend any republican as much. I very much believe that Trump has really ramped up the tribalist aspect to American poltics(not just the obvious racism) but the tribes of left/Dem/progr vs cons/Rep. Which has caused a lot of Rs to circle the wagons more than they would have for just about any other president. Which is why I tend to sound like I'm defending him or his supporters. I think we really need to ratchet done the "They're all horrible racists" talk if we want to get trump out of office or elect dems this year.

As I've said before, even before Trump being a republican was defacto evidence of racism and or fascism for a lot of lefties. This did two things, it made the GOP and conservatives stop trying and stop listening to the accusation.

This is also why I've argued against conflating all the blanking while black stores and really take issue with OPs like this. A. Very few people are actually irredeemable, I recently heard a great interview with a from Neo-Nazi skin head that demonstrates exactly that. B. Acting like everything trump does is obviously racist just keeps his supporters from seeing the actual racism. As someone said, if everything is racist then nothing is racist.

 

[kellyb]

As I've said before, even before Trump being a republican was defacto evidence of racism and or fascism for a lot of lefties. This did two things, it made the GOP and conservatives stop trying and stop listening to the accusation.

It made them stop pretending to be non-racist and non-fascist?

"We" "far leftists" get accused of being authoritarian racists all the time. Do you think we're about to start actually becoming that as a result of false accusations?

 

[kellyb]

I think a couple of the Trump supporters here are not True Belivers in Trump but Mickey Mouse Republicans....they will support anybody in the White House who is a Republican. They would support any Republican the same way they are supporting Trump. With the hard core members of the Personalty Cult, it's Trump or nobody.

You think they'd support Bernie Sanders or someone like him if he ran as a Republican and somehow won?

 

[ahhell]

It made them stop pretending to be non-racist and non-fascist?

"We" "far leftists" get accused of being authoritarian racists all the time. Do you think we're about to start actually becoming that as a result of false accusations?

It hasn't made you change your mind about anything either has it? Do actually pay attention to a conservative that accuses you of racism? Do you ever think, "I wonder if he has a point?" It seems unlikely.

You think they'd support Bernie Sanders or someone like him if he ran as a Republican and somehow won?

I think they would. As I've mentioned, there's decent research showing folks will agree or disagree with an idea depending on who the claimed source is.


https://youarenotsosmart.com/2018/0...itics-science-and-just-about-everything-else/

https://youarenotsosmart.com/transcripts/transcript-tribal-psychology/

 

[Ziggurat]

It hasn't made you change your mind about anything either has it? Do actually pay attention to a conservative that accuses you of racism? Do you ever think, "I wonder if he has a point?" It seems unlikely.

I think they would. As I've mentioned, there's decent research showing folks will agree or disagree with an idea depending on who the claimed source is.


https://youarenotsosmart.com/2018/0...itics-science-and-just-about-everything-else/

https://youarenotsosmart.com/transcripts/transcript-tribal-psychology/

You have badly misunderstood the purpose of this thread. The point is to demand why the other side isn't making concessions to your side. Attempting to understand them is effectively off topic here, and might even subject you to moderator action.

Get with the program and start blaming your opponents for everything that's wrong.

 

[kellyb]

It hasn't made you change your mind about anything either has it? Do actually pay attention to a conservative that accuses you of racism? Do you ever think, "I wonder if he has a point?" It seems unlikely.

No, I have never paid attention to false accusations, to my recollection.
Are you saying the rightwingers used to?

I think they would. As I've mentioned, there's decent research showing folks will agree or disagree with an idea depending on who the claimed source is.


https://youarenotsosmart.com/2018/02...erything-else/

https://youarenotsosmart.com/transcr...al-psychology/

I know that's a real effect, but a lot of rightwingers are primed to only respond to a certain type of rage, and they seek strong, authoritarian leaders.

This free (relatively short, scientific, entertaining) ebook is kind of crucial reading for all skeptics, in my opinion:
https://theauthoritarians.org/

 

[kellyb]

You have badly misunderstood the purpose of this thread. The point is to demand why the other side isn't making concessions to your side. Attempting to understand them is effectively off topic here, and might even subject you to moderator action.

Get with the program and start blaming your opponents for everything that's wrong.

The OP was just venting, but once a thread is out there, different people will use it for their own purposes.

But I know you're just venting, too.

 

[Delvo]

My sense is that they would not defend any republican as much.

No other has been attacked so much (because no other has earned it so much). "Resistance" equals the force that's applied. Put a 2-pound object on a table, and the table pushes up against it with 2 pounds of force. Put a 15-pound object on the same table, and the table pushes up against it with 15 pounds of force. (Also known in psychology as the "backfire effect")

As I've said before, even before Trump being a republican was defacto evidence of racism and or fascism for a lot of lefties.

It's become so automatic for a lot of them over the years that they don't seem to even be fully aware of what they're doing themselves anymore. The thread where they're simultaneously saying that any & all of their opposition consists of racists/nazis/whatevers but also gloating about how little support a recent racist/nazi gathering got (and most of them in general get) is truly a dizzying sight to behold.

if everything is racist then nothing is racist.

It's funny that Dan Rather's forged-letter episode came up, because the left's reaction to that was one of the most classic examples ever. "Encyclopedia brownshirts". Literally (literally literally), failing to fall for the left's lies equals being a Nazi.

And this was long before Trump, back when some are now claiming that they totally weren't acting the same back then as they are now. No "reich wing", no calling the White House a "plantation house", no saying that some bit of news made the President, VP, or members of the cabinet so happy they'd "goosestep around the Oval Office" in celebration... none of it ever happened.

I think we really need to ratchet do{wn} the "They're all horrible racists" talk if we want to get trump out of office or elect dems this year.

Anything will be sufficient this year, but the effect will wear off if the Democrats' name-calling wing retains the internal power they've held for ages instead of losing enough internal power to the party's focusing-on-policies-to-make-life-better-here wing.

* * *

Common ground is to be found not by navigating along the left-right spectrum, but by navigating along the populism-elitism spectrum. Some of Trump's campaign talk (which he has not followed through on in office) was identical to some of Bernie's talking points, and has been very popular coming from both of them. Trump won, and continues to please his rally audiences, by appearing as far from an elitist as possible, and was against an opponent whom nobody could ever mistake for anything but an ultra-elitist.

 

[WilliamSeger]

No other has been attacked so much (because no other has earned it so much). "Resistance" equals the force that's applied. Put a 2-pound object on a table, and the table pushes up against it with 2 pounds of force. Put a 15-pound object on the same table, and the table pushes up against it with 15 pounds of force. (Also known in psychology as the "backfire effect")

It's become so automatic for a lot of them over the years that they don't seem to even be fully aware of what they're doing themselves anymore. The thread where they're simultaneously saying that any & all of their opposition consists of racists/nazis/whatevers but also gloating about how little support a recent racist/nazi gathering got (and most of them in general get) is truly a dizzying sight to behold.

It's funny that Dan Rather's forged-letter episode came up, because the left's reaction to that was one of the most classic examples ever. "Encyclopedia brownshirts". Literally (literally literally), failing to fall for the left's lies equals being a Nazi.

And this was long before Trump, back when some are now claiming that they totally weren't acting the same back then as they are now. No "reich wing", no calling the White House a "plantation house", no saying that some bit of news made the President, VP, or members of the cabinet so happy they'd "goosestep around the Oval Office" in celebration... none of it ever happened.



Anything will be sufficient this year, but the effect will wear off if the Democrats' name-calling wing retains the internal power they've held for ages instead of losing enough internal power to the party's focusing-on-policies-to-make-life-better-here wing.

* * *

Common ground is to be found not by navigating along the left-right spectrum, but by navigating along the populism-elitism spectrum. Some of Trump's campaign talk (which he has not followed through on in office) was identical to some of Bernie's talking points, and has been very popular coming from both of them. Trump won, and continues to please his rally audiences, by appearing as far from an elitist as possible, and was against an opponent whom nobody could ever mistake for anything but an ultra-elitist.

What a pantload. If you want to understand most social issues, you need to look along the empathy-apathy spectrum first, and trumpers' hypersensitivity to being called racists is a good example. No, I don't believe all trumpers are racists; I think a goodly number of them just don't care that Trump and "half" his base are, because it's not an issue that affects them personally, but they know they need that other "half" to maintain political power. They just don't care that racism has real consequences to real people and that Trump's absurd pseudo-populism demagoguery is firing up that base. Then you want to act all offended if anyone points that out?

 

[BrooklynBaby]

What a pantload. If you want to understand most social issues, you need to look along the empathy-apathy spectrum first, and trumpers' hypersensitivity to being called racists is a good example. No, I don't believe all trumpers are racists; I think a goodly number of them just don't care that Trump and "half" his base are, because it's not an issue that affects them personally, but they know they need that other "half" to maintain political power. They just don't care that racism has real consequences to real people and that Trump's absurd pseudo-populism demagoguery is firing up that base. Then you want to act all offended if anyone points that out?

Where is your evidence that I'm a racist? I'm definitely in "half" of Trump's base.