Brexit: Now What? Part IV

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More Brexit good news:

Political uncertainty over Brexit is weighing on business investment, which has fallen to the lowest level for a year, a survey indicates.

The research, from manufacturing body EEF and accountancy advisers BDO, said the outlook for UK manufacturers was "slightly more subdued than it has been for some time".
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44350407
 
Political uncertainty over Brexit is weighing on business investment...
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Exactly. And the uncertainty is caused by those who have refused to accept the outcome of a democratic vote, what is official government policy, and was supported by both the major parties at the last General Election. If only remainers would stop carping and get on board, there would be no uncertainty.


Of course, remainers won't do that, but they should understand that most of the problems they complain about right now are the result of their own actions.
 
ceptimus said:
Exactly. And the uncertainty is caused by those who have refused to accept the outcome of a democratic vote, what is official government policy, and was supported by both the major parties at the last General Election. If only remainers would stop carping and get on board, there would be no uncertainty.


Of course, remainers won't do that, but they should understand that most of the problems they complain about right now are the result of their own actions.
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Lol... even brexiteers among themselves stIill haven't figured out what kind of brexit they want and you want to blame remainers for this uncertainty? Pathetic.

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Fine tuning of a policy that is broadly agreed upon is not the same as opposing a policy outright. If people just accepted that leave means leave there would be much less uncertainty.
 
ceptimus said:
Fine tuning of a policy that is broadly agreed upon is not the same as opposing a policy outright. If people just accepted that leave means leave there would be much less uncertainty.
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So what's the policy on the Irish border then?
 
ceptimus said:
Fine tuning of a policy that is broadly agreed upon is not the same as opposing a policy outright. If people just accepted that leave means leave there would be much less uncertainty.
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Can you provide an example of a "broadly agreed upon" policy that is sufficiently developed enough to only need some "fine tuning?"

I'm even willing to forgo any consideration of plausibility.
 
ceptimus said:
Fine tuning of a policy that is broadly agreed upon is not the same as opposing a policy outright. If people just accepted that leave means leave there would be much less uncertainty.
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Wut?

Don't people have a right to oppose a policy anymore? I thought that was the entire idea of a democracy.
 
ceptimus said:
Exactly. And the uncertainty is caused by those who have refused to accept the outcome of a democratic vote, what is official government policy, and was supported by both the major parties at the last General Election. If only remainers would stop carping and get on board, there would be no uncertainty.

Of course, remainers won't do that, but they should understand that most of the problems they complain about right now are the result of their own actions.
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No, the uncertainty is down to May and her Minions being unable to organise a piss-up in a brewery.
 
Delphic Oracle said:
Can you provide an example of a "broadly agreed upon" policy that is sufficiently developed enough to only need some "fine tuning?"

I'm even willing to forgo any consideration of plausibility.
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I think in Ceptimus' world 'leave means leave' is a policy and everyone who keeps insisting on something a little more detailed is a traitor to the country.
 
Strawberry said:
So what's the policy on the Irish border then?
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I believe the initial policy is to wish really, really hard for the EU to forget about the issue. The backup policy if that doesn't work is to scream that the EU is being unfair and then for David Davis to hold his breath until the EU backs down or he turns blue and passes out.
 
Mid said:
I believe the initial policy is to wish really, really hard for the EU to forget about the issue. The backup policy if that doesn't work is to scream that the EU is being unfair and then for David Davis to hold his breath until the EU backs down or he turns blue and passes out.
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:D

Well, I can see why Ceptimus is so annoyed at remainers for creating all this uncertainty then, who could fail to get behind a policy like that?
 
Mid said:
I believe the initial policy is to wish really, really hard for the EU to forget about the issue. The backup policy if that doesn't work is to scream that the EU is being unfair and then for David Davis to hold his breath until the EU backs down or he turns blue and passes out.
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I'm afraid that is too coherent.

It is to leave with a magic border that doesn't allow any smuggling of the wrong people, goods or weapons, but which doesn't exist in any way for other people - for example, chicken produced in Northern Ireland to EU standards can cross the border seamlessly, whilst chlorinated chicken produced in Northern Ireland to US standards can't - it can achieve all this by having the invisible border being ten miles wide. Although the precise mechanism is somewhat unclear at this time. I'm sure it will be obvious by the end of the transition period.
 
jimbob said:
I'm afraid that is too coherent.
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;) Maybe, but I was trying to stop being a saboteur and give constructive advice that Brexiters could agree with.

It is to leave with a magic border that doesn't allow any smuggling of the wrong people, goods or weapons, but which doesn't exist in any way for other people - for example, chicken produced in Northern Ireland to EU standards can cross the border seamlessly, whilst chlorinated chicken produced in Northern Ireland to US standards can't - it can achieve all this by having the invisible border being ten miles wide. Although the precise mechanism is somewhat unclear at this time. I'm sure it will be obvious by the end of the transition period.
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Also I think you misspelled "technological" wrong in the highlighted bit, but otherwise it seems a fair summary of the Government's position.
 
ceptimus said:
Exactly. And the uncertainty is caused by those who have refused to accept the outcome of a democratic vote, what is official government policy, and was supported by both the major parties at the last General Election. If only remainers would stop carping and get on board, there would be no uncertainty.
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The uncertainty is caused by the UK not having a plan or putting forward proposals grounded in reality. To be honest the only thing Brexiteers have had in common was that they believed in the idea that the UK should leave the EU. Problem is that everyone seems to have their own idea of what "leaving" would be so there's no coherent plan.

Of course, remainers won't do that, but they should understand that most of the problems they complain about right now are the result of their own actions.
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How is this the result of their own actions? From what I can tell Remainers have accepted that Brexit is going to happen, the question is how badly will the government cock it up.

ceptimus said:
Fine tuning of a policy that is broadly agreed upon is not the same as opposing a policy outright. If people just accepted that leave means leave there would be much less uncertainty.
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The UK is going to leave, they've already put in their paperwork to do so. But that's not the cause of the uncertainty, regardless of you wanting it to be.

Besides, you're allowed to oppose policies outright, that's the point of a democratic society.
 
Garrison said:
I think in Ceptimus' world 'leave means leave' is a policy and everyone who keeps insisting on something a little more detailed is a traitor to the country.
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That's unfair in ceptimus IMO. (S)he has provided a number of relatively specific positions regarding the Irish border, the UK's future relationships with the EU, non-EU future trade deals and so on. AFAIK, once established, they have tended to be reasonably consistent.

So from memory, the position on the Irish border is that it will be a soft border with no fixed border infrastructure. The UK will trade freely with Ireland and any concessions required to make that happen (given that the UK will be out of the EEA and customs union) will be made by the EU because the UK market is too important and the GFA needs to be kept in place. There will be free movement of people between Northern Ireland and Ireland (especially Irish people) but it's up to the Ireland and the EU to ensure that non-Irish EU citizens do not sneak across into Northern Ireland. ceptimus is receptive to there being beefed-up customs and security between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK to ensure that Northern Ireland isn't the equivalent of an unlocked back door.

That doesn't make the position achievable or realistic but it isn't as vague as, for example, the official government position.

Likewise with future trade relations with the EU. I think ceptimus' position is that the EU will have to concede ground and allow the UK to trade with the EU in a tariff-free (or nearly tariff free) way. The UK will, in the beginning, have laws and regulations which align so closely with the EU that this will not be an issue and if the two sets diverge over time, the EU will just have to accept it as a cost of access to the valuable UK market and continue to allow the UK free access to the market.
 
Wildy said:
How is this the result of their own actions? From what I can tell Remainers have accepted that Brexit is going to happen, the question is how badly will the government cock it up.
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The impression I get is that Brexiteers feel that they have already done the vast majority of the heavy lifting by getting the result in the referendum and having a few vague aspirations about how the future should be (characterised by "cake and eat it") and that it's only right and proper that the Remoaners do their part by doing the last bit of the tidying up - by sorting everything else out ;)
 
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