Brexit: Now What? Part IV

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Wildy said:
Simply put the reason why it's working the way it does now is because the EEA allows the free movement of goods within member nations. There are no internal customs checks because the ECU only requires customs checks on goods entering the area, not goods that are already within that area.

The issue is that the underlying circumstances that allow the invisible border to exist are changing yet somehow you expect no changes to result. Fact of the matter is that in this case it doesn't matter what the EU or the UK think about the border, the WTO is the power that holds the cards there.



Based on what? Can you explain how the UK and EU can have an open border with no customs controls despite the UK and EU not being part of the same customs union that satisfies WTO rules?
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You're making a compelling case to see reason.

What they'll hear is a compelling case to have a referendum on leaving the WTO.
 
3point14 said:
i really want the Irish government to announce they're entering the Schengen area.
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That'll probably happen after the UK completely cocks up the border issue and Ireland has no reason not to stay out of it.

Delphic Oracle said:
You're making a compelling case to see reason.

What they'll hear is a compelling case to have a referendum on leaving the WTO.
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That might be harder to achieve since the UK was a founding member.

Tbh I've been of the opinion that if the EU didn't want the UK to leave the easiest, but not cheapest, way to do that would have been to move the EU Parliament to London. That way the UK would be seeing EU regulations as a thing the UK would be forcing those lesser Continentals to follow instead of what they see now, diktats imposed upon them by Brussels.
 
catsmate said:
A good idea. I'd give it five years.
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it would put an end to the Common Travel Area which depends upon the UK and RoI coordinating their immigration regulations so that entering one country implies qualification to enter the other. That is bad enough, but when we consider that along most of the length of the Border between NI and the RoI most passport holders on both sides hold RoI passports. So how would that work? It would create a weird situation.

The large number of RoI citizens who have settled in the U.K. under the CTA arrangements. What about them? Are they to be "windrushed" out of the country?
 
Lothian said:
Not quite. Reclaimed from the seller as opposed to the Government. Sellers don't report that data to the government. Imports are declared by the importer.
An intergovernmental data sharing agreement has a number of issues.
1 the data is not currently reported by businesses, this would be a burden on them,
2 a new data system would be expensive, would take time and probably won't work. See Gvt computer projects of the past. You are talking about a system recording retail export sales in every EU state as well as the UK. This would only be needed for the Irish border EU to UK and back. EU states have no other need for it. They will expect the UK to pay (if they agree to it)
3 Who would oversee the data sharing agreement. There is a current data sharing agreement overseen by the ECJ. That is unacceptable to the people of Britain. We are insisting UK courts oversee all our agreements. That will be unacceptable to the EU.
4 This is to start in 10 months
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As I understand it claims for VAT refunds for retail exports have to be approved by customs - presumably in your example Ireland will be building border posts to stamp the forms?

For larger scale exports businesses DO report sales to businesses in other EU countries to the government - I have a form to file quarterly. Other EU countries do the same. If you want to know more see VAT Notice 725.
 
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Aber said:
As I understand it claims for VAT refunds for retail exports have to be approved by customs - presumably in your example Ireland will be building border posts to stamp the forms?

For larger scale exports businesses DO report sales to businesses in other EU countries to the government - I have a form to file quarterly. Other EU countries do the same. If you want to know more see VAT Notice 725.
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That is business to Business not sales to individusls. What you probably currently record is minimal. Do you list the individual items sold allowing duty and tax to be calculated. I recall it is totals only. In any case that system will go come brexit. We are leaving the single market. Sales to the UK will not be captured.
 
Mojo said:
What Kumar used to call “dynamic thinking”.
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I think it's one of those irregular adjectives.

"My proposal is inventive, your proposal will face problems in implementation, his proposals are utterly divorced from reality."
 
As someone who doesn't follow British politics all that much, can someone tell me how exactly Rees-Mogg came to be the spokesperson for the hard brexiteers?

As far as I can tell, he's a backbencher, who has been mocked for being something akin to a your usual out-of-touch Conservative charicature, with him apparently being quite wealthy, having a tendency to speak as if he's reciting the OED, and having views that are a few decades out of touch (being opposed to abortions for one). I didn't follow the referendum particularly close, but I gather he wasn't near the top of any of the Leave groups - and yet, once "Call me Dave" resigned, and it became clear that May would have a very rocky premiership, Rees-Mogg suddenly became the top favourite to replace her.
 
He went to the right school and college.
He is in the right clubs and lives in a mansion.
 
Craig B said:
it would put an end to the Common Travel Area which depends upon the UK and RoI coordinating their immigration regulations so that entering one country implies qualification to enter the other. That is bad enough, but when we consider that along most of the length of the Border between NI and the RoI most passport holders on both sides hold RoI passports. So how would that work? It would create a weird situation.

The large number of RoI citizens who have settled in the U.K. under the CTA arrangements. What about them? Are they to be "windrushed" out of the country?
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I'm assuming that Brexit, and the horrific economic consequences of it, will kill off the CTA.
 
The Don said:
IMO if we have to Brexit then there are two possible approaches to customs:

  1. Stay in the Custom Union and EEA and annoy the vast majority of Brexiteers
  2. Drop out of everything, have a hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland and wave goodbye to the Good Friday Agreement

Anything else (apart from variations on these themes) is just wishful thinking.
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I would suggest that the highlighted result would apply in both scenarios, not just the first. I think that the second would certainly impact the vast majority of Leave-voters in a manner they, a) don't like, especially because b) they didn't expect it.
 
Aber said:
This conflates (deliberately?) 2 separate concepts:

  1. a hard border to control physical movement of people (which would also need to include exit checks)
  2. EU freedom of movement, which is the freedom to move to the UK and work, set up a business, receive benefits etc

As far as I am aware, there is no evidence to support the view that UK voters wanted the first.
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You missed the important part of the second concept, i.e. "and vice versa." Unfortunately, pre-Referendum polling suggested that many Leave supporters objected to the free movement of EU citizens into the UK, but - hypocritically - still thought UK citizens should have free movement into the EU.
 
Information Analyst said:
You missed the important part of the second concept, i.e. "and vice versa." Unfortunately, pre-Referendum polling suggested that many Leave supporters objected to the free movement of EU citizens into the UK, but - hypocritically - still thought UK citizens should have free movement into the EU.
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What's hypocritical about it? People coming into the UK from the rest of the EU are foreign, but people going in the other direction are not foreign. :)
 
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