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There's already an Irish border. There are different currencies on either side and different tax rates (for example the standard VAT in Ireland is 3% higher than the one in Northern Ireland). People already drive across the border when they can get a cheaper deal on the other side.
We are being told that the current situation is acceptable to everyone, but that after Brexit it will be completely unacceptable - even though all sides agree that they don't want a hard border and the UK government has promised that it will not install one.
It's just a negotiating tactic by the EU and Remain supporters; only after Brexit is completed and there are no significant changes to the border will you will belatedly see that this was the case.
We are being told that the current situation is acceptable to everyone, but that after Brexit it will be completely unacceptable - even though all sides agree that they don't want a hard border and the UK government has promised that it will not install one.
It's just a negotiating tactic by the EU and Remain supporters; only after Brexit is completed and there are no significant changes to the border will you will belatedly see that this was the case.
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
"Ulster will fight, and Ulster will be right'!
That has always been the big problem with the 32 County republic:You would have to get the Protesents in Ulster to sing on willingly . To try to force it upon them would result in a freaking bloodbath that would make the "Troubles" of 1968 to 1998 look like a ladie's tea party. That is why although the good people of the Republic generally pay lip service to a 32 county republic, most of them don't want it to happen anytime soon.
ANybody who thinks a 32 country united Ireland is a feasible option just displays their ignorance of Irish History.
Can you not understand that Brexit is not about mere psychological acceptability, but about changes in rules, alliances and legalities all of which have objective real consequences above and beyond people's preferences and predispositions? This is not a matter where the British government's promises are the only determinant. There are other parties involved as well. The days of Britannia ruling the waves, or even ruling the island of Ireland, are now in the past.
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
Not really. You hear a lot of lip service in the Republic to a 32 county republic, but that is all it is..a mouthing of platitudes.
Trying to coerce the Orangemen into a republic would be a bloody nightmare,and all but a few of the more extreme IRA types know it.
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
The UK doesn't want it. NI doesn't want it. The republic doesn't want to accept such a money pit. The Tories don't want it. The DUP doesn't want it. The EU doesn't want it.
You are proposing to impose a "one size, fits nobody" solution to compensate for the messed up racism present in a vocal minority of the UK.
If, as you propose, NI is forced to accept re-unification, then the UK will fall apart. Scotexit will automatically happens in short order. The Welsh may follow suit.
Brexit leads to the downfall of the last remnant of the Great British Rumpire.
Amazer
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Sure, currently that border is invisible and people can do that.
It's unacceptable beccause the UK is leaving the regulatory framework that allow this border to be invisible.
How long before it will sink in that this isn't a negotiating tactic I wonder.
catsmate
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If someone is willing to foot the bill then maybe. Otherwise no.
Lothian
should be banned
Firstly the voters of the UK want a hard border. "Taking back control of our borders", "Stopping uncontrolled immigration", "100,000s of East Europeans coming here without our knowledge" ring any bells? The leave side made great play of the fact we don't know who is here. It would be unacceptable post Brexit to let anyone from Europe have total freedom to come to the UK without our knowledge. There must be a hard border if we are to stop the free movement of people.
Secondly, you clearly don't understand what a customs union is. If we are to make new trade deals with the rest of the world.... (A brief pause to laugh at the idea of Trump, currently whacking huuuuge tariffs on UK steel, giving us a good deal down the line).... we need to leave the EU customs Union. That means we charge tariffs when goods come into the UK and pay tariffs when goods go to the EU (This is a bit that confuses some brexiteers:- We still need to pay and charge even if the rates are harmonized as the duty belongs to different customs unions.). To do that we need a hard border. Only a handful of companies can afford to set up an inland customs warehouse. Yes a CUSTOMS warehouse. When goods speed past a virtual border they still need to go through customs controls before moving on down the supply chain. It is just customs controls happen elsewhere, the paperwork and need for physical checks remains.
Thirdly you don't understand the single market. Post Brexit if we are out of the single market then any goods coming from the EU to the UK will come here EU VAT free. You know how you see shops in tourist areas offing VAT free goods? That is because there is no VAT on goods exported from the single market. That means buying someone from the North buying goods in Eire will buy them EU VAT free. Same as anyone buying goods and services from France, Germany, anywhere in Europe post Brexit. They will all be EU VAT free. This will gives us consumers a great saving on the current situation where we pay EU VAT. Of course it will be crap for UK businesses who will be 20% more expensive than their EU rivals. So to protect our shops and businesses we charge import VAT when goods come in. Unfortunately that needs us to know what goods are coming in so once again we need a hard border.
Of course if you don't care about uncontrolled immigration, and want to stay in the Customs Union and Single Market you are right, there need be no change to the Irish border situation.
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catsmate
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Davis can't "give EU status" to NI.
catsmate
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Rubbish.
catsmate
No longer the 1
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Perhaps a spot of population transfer is in order?
Andy_Ross
Penultimate Amazing
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Plus, if we want to trade on WTO terms we need a border with customs control.
Simply put the reason why it's working the way it does now is because the EEA allows the free movement of goods within member nations. There are no internal customs checks because the ECU only requires customs checks on goods entering the area, not goods that are already within that area.
The issue is that the underlying circumstances that allow the invisible border to exist are changing yet somehow you expect no changes to result. Fact of the matter is that in this case it doesn't matter what the EU or the UK think about the border, the WTO is the power that holds the cards there.
Based on what? Can you explain how the UK and EU can have an open border with no customs controls despite the UK and EU not being part of the same customs union that satisfies WTO rules?
Indeed - "radical" and "imaginative" mean "no connection with reality or concept as to how this would work".
He hasn't explained how this would prevent someone importing chlorinated chicken from the US and shipping it across the border and anywhere else in the EU.
I think that to come up with such a solution, one would need both the intellect and ego of the Brexit Secretary.
Or stop 80 million Turks walking from the Republic into NI (aka UK) .....
This conflates (deliberately?) 2 separate concepts:
- a hard border to control physical movement of people (which would also need to include exit checks)
- EU freedom of movement, which is the freedom to move to the UK and work, set up a business, receive benefits etc
As far as I am aware, there is no evidence to support the view that UK voters wanted the first.
As I understand it VAT is generally reclaimed from the government when they have evidence that the goods have been exported, rather than being VAT free at the point of sale. An intergovernmental data sharing agreement to ensure that VAT is charged on imported goods would simplify the issue.
Lothian
should be banned
Why do we currently bother with any border immigration checks if the public don't care about your first point? Is your view that they are unnecessary? Given that people who here who we don't know about will be illegal immigrants I think it is an issue.
Not quite. Reclaimed from the seller as opposed to the Government. Sellers don't report that data to the government. Imports are declared by the importer.
An intergovernmental data sharing agreement has a number of issues.
1 the data is not currently reported by businesses, this would be a burden on them,
2 a new data system would be expensive, would take time and probably won't work. See Gvt computer projects of the past. You are talking about a system recording retail export sales in every EU state as well as the UK. This would only be needed for the Irish border EU to UK and back. EU states have no other need for it. They will expect the UK to pay (if they agree to it)
3 Who would oversee the data sharing agreement. There is a current data sharing agreement overseen by the ECJ. That is unacceptable to the people of Britain. We are insisting UK courts oversee all our agreements. That will be unacceptable to the EU.
4 This is to start in 10 months
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Mojo
Mostly harmless
Strawberry
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The Irish government is giving Britain two weeks to submit written proposals on the Irish border...
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...produce-brexit-border-proposals-idUSKCN1IY082
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...produce-brexit-border-proposals-idUSKCN1IY082
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