Cont: JFK Conspiracy Theories VI: Lyndon Johnson's Revenge

[HSienzant]

#2 Knoll witness on your list James Altgens. A knoll witness, really?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1t4ZAZix9hY

Altgens is counted as a knoll witness at Manifesto's cited source. But Altgens' testimony says he thought the first shot came from behind the limo, and the final shot came from next to the car or from one of the buildings at the corner of Elm and Houston (based not on the sound for the third shot, but from the damage to the President's head). He goes on to say he eliminated a pistol right next to the car because he saw no one close enough, so he reasoned it was a high powered rifle being fired from behind. The source he cites from is a conspiracy site, and they have a tendency to, uh, 'take certain liberties with the truth'.

== QUOTE ==
Mr. LIEBELER - And at that point did you take another picture?
Mr. ALTGENS - I made one picture at the time I heard a noise that sounded like a firecracker--I did not know it was a shot, but evidently my picture, as I recall, and it was almost simultaneously with the shot--the shot was just a fraction ahead of my picture, but that much---of course at that time I figured it was nothing more than a firecracker, because from my position down here the sound was not of such volume that it would indicate to me it was a high-velocity rifle.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you have any idea where the sound came from when you were standing there at No. 3 on Commission Exhibit No. 354?
Mr. ALTGENS - Well, it sounded like it was coming up from behind the car from my position--I mean the first shot, and being fireworks--who counts fireworks explosions? I wasn't keeping track of the number of pops that took place, but I could vouch for No. 1, and I can vouch for the last shot, but I cannot tell you how many shots were in between. There was not another shot fired after the President was struck in the head. That was the last shot--that much I will say with a great degree of certainty.
Mr. LIEBELER - What makes you so certain of that, Mr. Altgens?
Mr. ALTGENS - Because, having heard these shots and then having seen the damage that was done on this shot to the President's head, I was aware at that time that shooting was taking place and there was not a shot--I looked--I looked because I knew the shot had to come from either over here, if it were close range, or had to come from a high-powered rifle.
Mr. LIEBELER - When you say "over here," you indicate what?
Mr. ALTGENS - The left side of the car.
Mr. LIEBELER - That would be approximately the intersection of Elm Street and the little street that runs down in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building; isn't that right?
Mr. ALTGENS - Somewhere in that direction, yes, sir. But if it were a pistol it would have to be fired at close range for any degree of accuracy and there was no one in that area that I could see with any firearms, so I looked back up in this area.
Mr. LIEBELER - Indicating the buildings surrounding the intersection of Houston Street and Elm Street; is that correct?
Mr. ALTGENS - Yes. What made me almost certain that the shot came from behind was because at the time I was looking at the President, just as he was struck, it caused him to move a bit forward.. He seemed as if at the time----well, he was in a position-- sort of immobile. He wasn't upright. He was at an angle but when it hit him, it seemed to have just lodged--it seemed as if he were hung up on a seat button or something like that. It knocked him just enough forward that he came right on down. There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where I was standing, so much so that it indicated to me that the shot came out of the left side of his head. Also, the fact that his head was covered with blood, the hairline included, on the left side all the way down, with no blood on his forehead or face--- suggested to me, too, that the shot came from the opposite side, meaning in the direction of this Depository Building, but at no time did I know for certain where the shot came from.
== UNQUOTE ==

Talk about a good eye. Altgens saw the three inch movement forward that's barely perceptible in the film.

Hank

 

[manifesto]

Good point. While she's a knoll witness, she doesn't affirm the HSCA acoustics conclusions Manifesto is relying on, in that she puts all the shots coming from below her and to her right.

I've made that point to Manifesto before. Since he thinks there were multiple shooters in multiple locations, including behind the limo and to the right front, all his "Knoll" witnesses must be counted as wrong, because they only named one location for all the shots. Of course, he ignored the point entirely.

Because he has to choose: Either those supposed 52^* witnesses are wrong or the acoustics evidence is wrong (or both are wrong). But they can't both be right, because they are mutually exclusive. His "Knoll" witnesses named only one location (the knoll) as the source of all the shots, and his acoustic evidence indicated multiple sources for the shots.

He doesn't like that Hobson's choice, so he makes none at all.

Hank

Hello Hank. You have been told that there is a bit harder to keep exact count of the exact number of shots in a tumultous situation than it is to register the general direction from where one or more shots are fired from. In the case of Adams she was inside the building and therefore maybe exposed to the knoll shot more than to the TSBD/DalTex shots and therefore thought that all came from the knoll.

Who knows?

____________

^* There's actually a lot fewer than 52.

Good. I’m looking forward to you showing those included in the ”52” that shouldn’t be there.

Do it Hank.

 

[jeffas69]

Deleted

 

[manifesto]

Altgens is counted as a knoll witness at Manifesto's cited source. But Altgens' testimony says he thought the first shot came from behind the limo, and the final shot came from next to the car or from one of the buildings at the corner of Elm and Houston (based not on the sound for the third shot, but from the damage to the President's head). He goes on to say he eliminated a pistol right next to the car because he saw no one close enough, so he reasoned it was a high powered rifle being fired from behind. The source he cites from is a conspiracy site, and they have a tendency to, uh, 'take certain liberties with the truth'.

== QUOTE ==
Mr. LIEBELER - And at that point did you take another picture?
Mr. ALTGENS - I made one picture at the time I heard a noise that sounded like a firecracker--I did not know it was a shot, but evidently my picture, as I recall, and it was almost simultaneously with the shot--the shot was just a fraction ahead of my picture, but that much---of course at that time I figured it was nothing more than a firecracker, because from my position down here the sound was not of such volume that it would indicate to me it was a high-velocity rifle.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you have any idea where the sound came from when you were standing there at No. 3 on Commission Exhibit No. 354?
Mr. ALTGENS - Well, it sounded like it was coming up from behind the car from my position--I mean the first shot, and being fireworks--who counts fireworks explosions? I wasn't keeping track of the number of pops that took place, but I could vouch for No. 1, and I can vouch for the last shot, but I cannot tell you how many shots were in between. There was not another shot fired after the President was struck in the head. That was the last shot--that much I will say with a great degree of certainty.
Mr. LIEBELER - What makes you so certain of that, Mr. Altgens?
Mr. ALTGENS - Because, having heard these shots and then having seen the damage that was done on this shot to the President's head, I was aware at that time that shooting was taking place and there was not a shot--I looked--I looked because I knew the shot had to come from either over here, if it were close range, or had to come from a high-powered rifle.
Mr. LIEBELER - When you say "over here," you indicate what?
Mr. ALTGENS - The left side of the car.
Mr. LIEBELER - That would be approximately the intersection of Elm Street and the little street that runs down in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building; isn't that right?
Mr. ALTGENS - Somewhere in that direction, yes, sir. But if it were a pistol it would have to be fired at close range for any degree of accuracy and there was no one in that area that I could see with any firearms, so I looked back up in this area.
Mr. LIEBELER - Indicating the buildings surrounding the intersection of Houston Street and Elm Street; is that correct?
Mr. ALTGENS - Yes. What made me almost certain that the shot came from behind was because at the time I was looking at the President, just as he was struck, it caused him to move a bit forward.. He seemed as if at the time----well, he was in a position-- sort of immobile. He wasn't upright. He was at an angle but when it hit him, it seemed to have just lodged--it seemed as if he were hung up on a seat button or something like that. It knocked him just enough forward that he came right on down. There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where I was standing, so much so that it indicated to me that the shot came out of the left side of his head. Also, the fact that his head was covered with blood, the hairline included, on the left side all the way down, with no blood on his forehead or face--- suggested to me, too, that the shot came from the opposite side, meaning in the direction of this Depository Building, but at no time did I know for certain where the shot came from.
== UNQUOTE ==

Talk about a good eye. Altgens saw the three inch movement forward that's barely perceptible in the film.

Hank

Hello Hank. You should read the current posting before giving in to your itchy little blue fingers:

Altgens in an AP dispatch, november 22 (same day):

"At first I thought the shots came from the opposite side of the street [i.e., the knoll]. I ran over there to see if I could get some pictures . . . I did not know until later where the shots came from."​

He thought the shots came from the knoll, but ’changed his mind’ when they told him that they came from the TSBD.

Ouch.

 

[HSienzant]

Altgens in an AP dispatch, november 22 (same day):

"At first I thought the shots came from the opposite side of the street [i.e., the knoll]. I ran over there to see if I could get some pictures . . . I did not know until later where the shots came from."​

He thought the shots came from the knoll, but changed his mind when they told him that they came from the TSBD.

Really?

Assuming for the sake of argument that quote is true:

The Depository is on the opposite side of the street from Altgens as well.

You're simply ignoring his clear statements about the source of the shots and begging the question and presuming he meant the knoll.

In other words, your bias is showing.

Hank

 

[RoboTimbo]

Altgens in an AP dispatch, november 22 (same day):

"At first I thought the shots came from the opposite side of the street [i.e., the knoll]. I ran over there to see if I could get some pictures . . . I did not know until later where the shots came from."​

He thought the shots came from the knoll, but changed his mind when they told him that they came from the TSBD.

Really?

But the knoll shooter was shooting a civil war era musket that made a huge cloud of smoke? The organizers of this assassination sound like s.

 

[manifesto]

Assuming for the sake of argument that quote is true:

The Depository is on the opposite side of the street from Altgens as well.

You're simply ignoring his clear statements about the source of the shots and begging the question and presuming he meant the knoll.

In other words, your bias is showing.

Hank

He was standing at the south side of Elm when taking his famous photo of the president limo the second before the fatal headshot.

Whats on the opposite of the south side of Elm Street at the spot where Altgens was taking his photo?

The grassy knoll.

Or, are you suggesting that Altgens later on got told that the shots NOT came from the opposite side of the street? Not from the knoll, not from the TSBD?

 

[jeffas69]

Hello Hank. You have been told that there is a bit harder to keep exact count of the exact number of shots in a tumultous situation than it is to register the general direction from where one or more shots are fired from. In the case of Adams she was inside the building and therefore maybe exposed to the knoll shot more than to the TSBD/DalTex shots and therefore thought that all came from the knoll.

Why exactly would that be the case? And if it were the case why would she be more sure of the number than the direction? She and so, so many others got the same count and the direction wrong.

 

[HSienzant]

Hello Hank. You have been told that there is a bit harder to keep exact count of the exact number of shots in a tumultous situation than it is to register the general direction from where one or more shots are fired from. In the case of Adams she was inside the building and therefore maybe exposed to the knoll shot more than to the TSBD/DalTex shots and therefore thought that all came from the knoll.

That's still called Begging the Question. You don't get to presume what she missed and should have heard and where the shots came from to support your argument that the shots came from multiple sources.

She was at an open window inside the building.

== QUOTE ==
Mr. BELIN - Counting from the east side, were you standing in the second pair of windows?
Miss ADAMS - No, sir.
Mr. BELIN - From the east side, were you standing in the third pair, of either of those windows?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Now, of that third pair, from the east side, would it have been the east window or the west window?
Miss ADAMS - The west window.
Mr. BELIN - So another way, if you don't count in pairs, but count in single units from the east side, you would have been in the sixth window from your left as you were facing out the window, is that correct?
Miss ADAMS - That's right.
Mr. BELIN - Were you standing with anyone
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - With whom?
Miss ADAMS - I was standing with Sandra Styles, Elsie Dorman, and Dorothy May Garner.
== UNQUOTE ==

She heard all the shots from below and to the right, she said. That would be, among other sources, the overpass. It's not just the knoll. You're assuming what you need to prove.

The overpass was known to cause echoes, and one witness testified to the confusion the sounds could cause.

== QUOTE ==
Mr. BALL - Did you hear anything?
Mr. BOWERS - I heard three shots. One, then a slight pause, then two very close together. Also reverberation from the shots.
Mr. BELIN - And were you able to form an opinion as to the source of the sound or what direction it came from, I mean?
Mr. BOWERS - The sounds came either from up against the School Depository Building or near the mouth of the triple underpass.
Mr. BALL - Were you able to tell which?
Mr. BOWERS - No; I could not.
Mr. BALL - Well, now, had you had any experience before being in the tower as to sounds coming from those various places?
Mr. BOWERS - Yes; I had worked this same tower for some 10 or 12 years, and was there during the time they were renovating the School Depository Building, and had noticed at that time the similarity of sounds occurring in either of those two locations.
Mr. BALL - Can you tell me now whether or not it came, the sounds you heard, the three shots came from the direction of the Depository Building or the triple underpass?
Mr. BOWERS - No; I could not.
Mr. BALL - From your experience there, previous experience there in hearing sounds that originated at the Texas School Book Depository Building, did you notice that sometimes those sounds seem to come from the triple underpass? Is that what you told me a moment ago?
Mr. BOWERS - There is a similarity of sound, because there is a reverberation which takes place from either location.
Mr. BALL - Had you heard sounds originating near the triple underpass before?
Mr. BOWERS - Yes; quite often. Because trucks backfire and various occurrences.
Mr. BALL - And you had heard noises originating from the Texas School Depository when they were building there?
Mr. BOWERS - They were renovating. I---did carpenter work as well as sandblasted the outside of the building.
== UNQUOTE ==

Many of the witnesses named as knoll witnesses in your list actually named the overpass. You don't get to presume they heard shots from the knoll when what they could have heard was the reverberations from the overpass. Where a witness says the overpass, or the bridge, or the underpass (or akin to it, like Adams 'below and to the right'), you cannot count them as knoll witnesses without begging the question.

Good. I’m looking forward to you showing those included in the ”52” that shouldn’t be there.

Already down two. James Altgens and Victoria Adams.

Hank

 

[bknight]

No, you are wrong:

”This initial transfer of energy causes the target to swell or move minutely into the force and against the line of fire. The greater the transferred energy, the more pronounced the forward movement” (Karger, 2008; Coupland, 2011; Radford, 2009).​

And what are the qualifications of these three gentlemen?

Video of the phenomenon: https://youtu.be/xvOUNBT08wM

The gel does indeed swell as the momentum of the bullet is transferred to the surrounding tissue. However it does not move back toward the bullets trajectory, only in your imagination.

No, the blood spatter is typical back spatter, that is, a wide cone of very fine driplets/mist spreading out from an entrance wound against the trajectory of the incomming missile.

Citation for this assertion.

Good book on the subject: https://www.amazon.com/Enemy-Truth-...e=UTF8&qid=1526158492&sr=8-1&keywords=Fiester

Most of those that expressed an opinion, said that the shots came from grassy knoll.

I do not argue against one or more shooter in the TSBD, I argue that the smell of gunpowder came from the knoll = evidence of one or more shots fired from in front of the president.

I do not see any back head at all? It’s like all black with no detail?

Do you see any detail from the right back of the head?

There is no gapping hole in the back of JFK's head, but the right temporal region has a huge gapping hole, shot from the back.

 

[Axxman300]

She and her friend rushed down the stairs to get out and to the area behind said fence in order to see if they had caught the assassin.

So on the one hand you have Oswald running away from a shooting, but now you have people running in the direction where they think a man with a high-powered rifle is hiding.

You don't get out much, do you.

 

[jeffas69]

#3 Knoll: Danny Arce

Mr. BALL. Where were you standing when you heard the shots?
Mr. ARCE. I was standing in front of the Texas School Book Depository. I was on that grassy area part in front.
Mr. BALL. You were not on the sidewalk?
Mr. ARCE. No, I was on the sidewalk, then I walked up to the grass to get a higher view. and still couldn't see.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear shots?
Mr. ARCE. Yeah.
Mr. BALL. How many?
Mr. ARCE. Three. Mr. BALL. Where did you make out the direction of the sound?
Mr. ARCE. Yeah, I thought they came from the railroad tracks to the west of the Texas School Book Depository.


Not in the building. Heard only three. Not five. All from one direction. Is he mistaken or the so called acoustic evidence?

 

[manifesto]

Why exactly would that be the case? And if it were the case why would she be more sure of the number than the direction? She and so, so many others got the same count and the direction wrong.

HSCA performed tests on Dealey Plaza with blind folded subjects trying to decide from where shots where fired. Everyone succeded every time.

It’s a sunny day and the president with wife is passing by. Suddenly all hell brakes loose, gunshots are fired and the presidents head explodes. You start counting the shots? One, two, three, four ... ?

Or you take cover remembering the most pregnant ones? The were two bursts. First three shots with tightly spaced than silence in ca five seconds and then a second burst with two shots even tighter together.

My guess is that it sounded like around three shots and that they gave a conservative guesstimate instead of risking losing face if they were too frivolous.

And, there is the problem of:

1. How is the interview done? What questions were made. What questions were NOT made.

2. Were there any intimadation or manipulating of witnesses making them conform to the official narrative?

There are reports of that.

 

[abaddon]

I find it amusing how close JFK cranks are to religion. Everything must be taken on faith because what? Faith.

There is nothing one could not believe on the basis of "faith". Nobody has ever come up with anything one could not believe on the basis of "faith". It is the big excuse for intellectual laziness. I have "faith" that there are aliens at area 51 running a yuge operation, therefore there must be such simply because I have faith that it is so. Belief absent evidence. It is simply religion in a tuxedo masquerading.

 

[jeffas69]

HSCA performed tests on Dealey Plaza with blind folded subjects trying to decide from where shots where fired. Everyone succeded every time.

-Speculation Deleted-

So the tests were performed from multiple directions and everyone got it right. None of them said all shots were from only one direction?

Did any of the tests have quick shots in succession to see if they could be discerned properly?

 

[HSienzant]

He was standing at the south side of Elm when taking his famous photo of the president limo the second before the fatal headshot.

Whats on the opposite of the south side of Elm Street at the spot where Altgens was taking his photo?

The grassy knoll.

Or, are you suggesting that Altgens later on got told that the shots NOT came from the opposite side of the street? Not from the knoll, not from the TSBD?

You mean this photo? http://scribblguy.50megs.com/altgens.jpg

That's the Depository in the background. On the other side of the street.

Need a link to his precise - verifiable - statement on 11/22/63. Not that I doubt you. I doubt your sources.

Hank

 

[manifesto]

Why exactly would that be the case? And if it were the case why would she be more sure of the number than the direction? She and so, so many others got the same count and the direction wrong.

Ok, lets back up a little bit. The argument was that only ”13%” of the witnesses in Dealey Plaza said that the shots came from the knoll.

I’m saying that most of the witnesses who was asked, 52 of them, said that the shots came from the knoll.

Are you disputing this?

Show me.

 

[RoboTimbo]

My guess is that it sounded like around three shots

Thank you for your admission. Three shots do tend to sound like three shots. That may be why the majority of witnesses heard three shots, as you have noted.

 

[HSienzant]

#3 Knoll: Danny Arce

Mr. BALL. Where were you standing when you heard the shots?
Mr. ARCE. I was standing in front of the Texas School Book Depository. I was on that grassy area part in front.
Mr. BALL. You were not on the sidewalk?
Mr. ARCE. No, I was on the sidewalk, then I walked up to the grass to get a higher view. and still couldn't see.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear shots?
Mr. ARCE. Yeah.
Mr. BALL. How many?
Mr. ARCE. Three. Mr. BALL. Where did you make out the direction of the sound?
Mr. ARCE. Yeah, I thought they came from the railroad tracks to the west of the Texas School Book Depository.


Not in the building. Heard only three. Not five. All from one direction. Is he mistaken or the so called acoustic evidence?

And "the railroad tracks" doesn't mean of necessity the knoll. He could be referencing the overpass which was west of the building as well.

So this is another witness where Manifesto's conspiracy source is just begging the question by counting Arce as a knoll witness. Keep up the good work.

Hank

 

[manifesto]

You mean this photo? http://scribblguy.50megs.com/altgens.jpg

That's the Depository in the background. On the other side of the street.

Need a link to his precise - verifiable - statement on 11/22/63. Not that I doubt you. I doubt your sources.

Hank

Hello Hank. If he was told later that the shots was fired from the TSBD, why was he wrong when he first thought that the shots came from the opposite side of the street?

- ”Well, first I thought that the shots came from the TSBD but later on I was told that the shots actually came from the, TSBD”?

Edited by zooterkin: 

Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.