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Is your atheism predominately a science success or a theism fail?

I know plenty of people who are "religious" solely for the social contact. They couldn't tell you -- or probably care less -- what their church taught on any particular subject beyond common-knowledge Christianity. For them it's just the Sunday morning coffee klatch. And that's absolutely fine with me, since those are the people who seem least likely to do anything to which others might object.

However if, like me, you live in a state dominated by a particular religious sect, that sense of community has a dark side. Mormons express a tremendous sense of community, much of which has positive outcomes. But it's such a proportionally large community that non-Mormons easily feel like second-class citizens.

That's merely a social consequence, but here the community leaks over into things like employment, housing, social services, etc. that really need to be free from interference. At places I've worked, it's not uncommon to see employees at various levels of the company talking openly about church activities, participation, etc. to the extent you suspect that work and church are really just facets of the same community. This makes it hard to have confidence in employment-related decisions -- hiring, firing, promotions, etc. Though not universal, it happens often enough that firms would rather hire, and landlords would rather rent to, people "from within the faith." And while that's illegal, it's easy to get away with. And with our legislature currently in session, most relevant conversations revolve around what the Mormon church is going to say about each bill, which has historically correlated with whether the bill passes. There is widespread suspicion that some state legislators simply do what their church leaders say, though that's denied from both directions.. But it sure doesn't help that the capitol building is just a couple blocks away from Mormon HQ.

That's my particular experience living in a highly religious area. I've heard similar stories from other places in the U.S. where religion is dominant for social and community reasons as well. I wouldn't say this is the same everywhere I've lived.

My atheism comes from simply not believing in the religion. The religion doesn't have to "fail" per se in any colossal or embarrassing way for me to arrive at that decision. But in my case, where religion often flexes its muscles in ways I find inappropriate, I become a more active atheist. Which is to say, I oppose the inappropriate intrusion of religion, not for what is believed, but for what is done. You could probably chalk that up as a "theism fail," but I think it has more to do with ordinary community behavior. People can act like jerks without it being related to a belief in God.

The success of science doesn't really affect my atheism. I work with dozens upon dozens of scientists and other scientifically-minded people who are also active Mormons (and not jerks about it). Their theistic beliefs don't affect, or seem affected by, their ability to be good scientists. Granted the science we do doesn't really get into places where science and Mormonism would clash. But I think one's adoption of science and a scientific mode of thinking doesn't really necessitate some particular theistic or atheistic belief.

Utah really is in a league of its own when it comes to the church's influence on business and politics and it's cultural influence of non members of the church. I've heard your complaints from other people I know who lived in Utah. Another atheist I know who was a former LDS adherent also told me similar things. He left the church because although he was raised in the church and weakly believed it, he didn't believe it enough to go on a mission and sell it to others. The impression I got from him, it was do his mission or leave the church. Maybe that's an exaggeration...but I got the feeling there was a lot of pressure.
 
I guess it does make a difference where you started out. Like some others here I grew up with a bunch of very nice people who were religious and the social aspect of that association was good. If I was slow to abandon all the trappings of religion and churches, it was partly because of the good people I knew there. Later I hung out with some Quakers, and again they were fine people, easy to get along with, tolerant and thoughtful. I can't accept religion, but I have no problem with people who do, as long as they don't try to hammer it into me.

I grew up, unlike Jay, in a rather liberal corner of Connecticut, and the failure of religion was simply intellectual. It just did not take. Faced with the inexplicable I'd rather just acknowledge that I don't know than to substitute belief for honest ignorance.
 
A failure of theism. I read the bible and took notes, which annihilated any lingering doubts I may have ever had on the subject. It amazes me that bible study groups don't end in everyone asking how anyone could take this book seriously.
 
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I’m wondering if others are atheists predominately because of the success of science or the failure of theism.

I came to atheism by long term observation that the behaviours, attitudes and beliefs of religious people and the non-religious were for all practical purposes identical. This being the case and there is no noticeable transformation that accompanies the profession of faith, there is no reason to put one's faith in any particular supernatural being or any supernatural being at all.
 
Why is the human created abstract concept of "evil" a problem?

Demiurge - A being responsible for the creation of the universe.

Teleology – The doctrine that there is evidence of purpose or design in the universe, and esp that this provides proof of the existence of a Designer.

Seems to me you are perhaps some sort of theist rather than some sort of atheist.


So you present these (self chosen) translations as the only way to evaluate what I said. Not surprising then your comments on the problem of evil. Other people seem to understand what I said though. Thanks for informing me that I am a theist (in your great system of values) but no thanks. Happily remaining more open toward the possibility of some sort of teleology (for example in the sense put forward by Paul Davies) does not imply belief in anything.

By the way Demiurge was understood as a limited being(s), albeit the creator(s) of our Universe (including possible beings in a 'higher up' reality), but as I said I think that an (omni all) Supreme Being is unlikely to exist. And teleology is of course 'the explanation of phenomena by the purpose they serve rather than by postulated causes' + 'purpose and design are a part of or are apparent in nature'. rational people ask first for clarifications before commenting.
 
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By the way Demiurge was understood as a limited being(s), albeit the creator(s) of our Universe (including possible beings in a 'higher up' reality), ...

A good example of a non personal god. The demiurge can just be a force of nature.

What I don't understand is your use of "limited being". The demiurge is extremely powerful, yet limited just in scope. And this demiurge together with Humanism seems to be the basis of their mild beliefs for many an agnostic.
 
I'm not sure how to parse that statement correctly. Do you mean, you were increasingly unwilling to consider theist arguments as you accumulated instances of theism being contrary to fact, logic or common sense?

Sorry, I should have been more clear.

I'm always willing to consider theist arguments when they provide new ones (a rarity now I've heard most of the oft repeated ones).

But I was referring to how my atheism grew as science, logic, history, etc demonstrated atheism was the more rational stance; whereas theism failed to provide any credible answers to questions such as morality.
 
For me it was both. Religion contradicted the science I knew.

But my atheism increased the more theism failed.

I'm not sure how to parse that statement correctly. Do you mean, you were increasingly unwilling to consider theist arguments as you accumulated instances of theism being contrary to fact, logic or common sense?

Sorry, I should have been more clear.

I'm always willing to consider theist arguments when they provide new ones (a rarity now I've heard most of the oft repeated ones).

But I was referring to how my atheism grew as science, logic, history, etc demonstrated atheism was the more rational stance; whereas theism failed to provide any credible answers to questions such as morality.


Clear as can be for me now and even before the further clarification.:thumbsup:
 
So as religion has failed morality(I agree with that) what has science, logic, history etc. to say about morality?

I would like a clarification, Thor 2


Science doesn't "say" anything about morality. If we use the scientific method however (observation), we can see today that the places in the World today that enjoy the lowest levels of crime, are the same places where education levels are highest, and religious observance least. This can be an indicator that morality is highest in such places I think.

We have an abundance of evidence from history (very recent as well as old), that religion has encouraged some of the most abhorrent behaviour we know of. It could be argued they were good people doing it - just misguided by religion.

The theme of this thread is about what caused the breakdown of religious belief in the one responding. Jagermeister just mentioned that "theism failed to provide any credible answers to questions such as morality", not that science did.
 
Science doesn't "say" anything about morality. If we use the scientific method however (observation), we can see today that the places in the World today that enjoy the lowest levels of crime, are the same places where education levels are highest, and religious observance least. This can be an indicator that morality is highest in such places I think.

We have an abundance of evidence from history (very recent as well as old), that religion has encouraged some of the most abhorrent behaviour we know of. It could be argued they were good people doing it - just misguided by religion.
The theme of this thread is about what caused the breakdown of religious belief in the one responding. Jagermeister just mentioned that "theism failed to provide any credible answers to questions such as morality", not that science did.

But religion is not a thing or a category in itself, it is a natural phenomenon and a human behavior. Religion is not wrong or right in naturalistic/scientific terms. It is a fact like gravity.
Nor is science a thing or a category in itself, it is a natural phenomenon and a human behavior. Science is not wrong or right in naturalistic/scientific terms. It is a fact like gravity.

We have been here before.
We both want to replace religious behavior with something else? How do we do that and what do we replace it with?
It is easy to say that religion doesn't work for you or me, but we want that to be so for as many people as possible, right??? So how do we do that and what do we replace it with?

With regards
 
But religion is not a thing or a category in itself, it is a natural phenomenon and a human behavior. Religion is not wrong or right in naturalistic/scientific terms. It is a fact like gravity.

Religion is a natural phenomena? Not to sure about that.

Religion has/does fill the need in some, to have answers for phenomena we have no explanation for. Some however is not all and others, like myself, am comfortable with a lack of knowledge, although hungry to learn more.


Nor is science a thing or a category in itself, it is a natural phenomenon and a human behavior. Science is not wrong or right in naturalistic/scientific terms. It is a fact like gravity.

Let's not conflate science with too much else. Science is a method used to establish the most likely truth and is naturally used by all thinking creatures. Science is right in that it is the most reliable method to arrive at a truthful conclusion.


We have been here before.
We both want to replace religious behavior with something else? How do we do that and what do we replace it with?
It is easy to say that religion doesn't work for you or me, but we want that to be so for as many people as possible, right??? So how do we do that and what do we replace it with?

With regards

Not to sure we need to replace religion with anything, other than wonderful feeling of release to be done with it. In a sense you could say you are replacing religion with a thirst for real knowledge, and an acceptance (without unease), that all is not known. It would seem that more and more people are coming to this mindset, when we observe the breakdown of religion in the more educated societies of the World.
 
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I believe that the fact that I didn't assimilate into Christianity had more to do with other mythologies and works of fiction than with science. A variety of things that were presented to me as fiction, from Transformers to The Odyssey to the Flash and Green Lantern to Winnie the Pooh to Knight Rider to Battlestar Galactica to Santa Claus, just never seemed to me any different from Biblical stuff.

I was 11 and atheist before the idea of science and religion having any conflicts was even apparent to me, not because I previously thought they could fit together, but because I hadn't even imagined the question and realized that anybody would think they were supposed to. To me they had seemed irrelevant to each other, so even bothering to ask about how well Christianity matched reality would have been like asking about how well the real world could accommodate the magical powers of Skeletor or Papa Smurf.
 
Good on you for coming to the balanced and pragmatic views that you've shown on this board, and not becoming an atheist reactionary.


Well I also was subjected to mandatory religious education in school and it caused me a lot of pain until I managed to flush the crap out of my system. I don't think children should be subjected to this pain inducing nonsense, so will come out against theistic indoctrination whenever I can.

I don't hate theists but do hate theism and if that makes me an "atheistic reactionary" so be it.
 
No, you haven't do done it yet. Religion is still there. The only things gone are some particular indoctrinated dogma and the fantastic ideation that comes with it.


You might think you are gifted with some remarkable insight ale, but you will have to do more than this to convince me you are so gifted.
 
You might think you are gifted with some remarkable insight ale, but you will have to do more than this to convince me you are so gifted.

I'm not trying to convince you (nothing is about you). I'm just trying to give a form to perceptions many others have regarding antitheists like you, perceptions they haven't verbalized yet. Then, they will be able to agree or not. It's their feedback what I'm looking for.

Religion is in human nature, as aggression is. You can be a religious freak or a violent criminal, or you can become a false atheist who is chasing theists and their stupid beliefs, or you can become a pacifist who hooks 100 bills and leaves them in the sidewalk, and when someone tries to grab them, reel them quickly into your garden so you can legally shoot the trespasser.

That is the kind of "pacifist", "self-controlled" dudes they are. That is how much non-theist certain "atheists" are.

Be sure I'm not particularly gifted nor you are important in this debate. We're not even a pawns. Not even the squares bellow it. Just specks of dust on the board.
 

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