School shooting Florida

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William Parcher said:
Deputy who didn’t stop Florida shooting thinks he ‘did a good job’



https://nypost.com/2018/02/22/deputy-who-didnt-stop-florida-shooting-thinks-he-did-a-good-job
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Well he was completely outgunned, it's quite possible that if he didn't become a casualty himself, he might easily have missed and hit innocent people.

What would you have done in his position?

90-seconds after hearing the shooting starting, you get to the building, and hear semiautomatic rifle fire.

Your only firearm is a pistol that you trained with but have never used in action, and the accurate range is maybe a few scores of feet.

You do know that the rifle will significantly outrange you, and that the shooter has prepared enough to set off the fire alarm.


You won't know any more than that.


If you stay outside, you might be able to stop the shooter leaving the building. If you go in, you might shoot innocent people, you might get shot, you might struggle to find anyone.

As has been said upthread, going in with a pistol is basically an action movie.

At Colombine, the armed guard did exchange shots with the shooters but failed to hit them.
 
LTC8K6 said:
My recollection is that the policy prior to Columbine was to wait for backup.

After Columbine it became confront immediately.
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Hours ago I posted the name of a document about police responding to this type of situation. It was from a couple years ago so long after Columbine.

It said that policies differ widely between locations, but in general - lone officers going in was extremely dangerous. A team of about 4 was best to engage the shooter. Generally, only one team engages with others holding a perimeter. An SRO (which this officer was) being a part of that team helps it reach the shooter faster as the SRO knows the facility, whereas the other officers do not, and the SRO also likely has information about the shooter(s) which the other officers do not. Unless the lone officer going in immediately kills the gunman (his chances would be diminished if he is taking a handgun to an AR15 fight, and if the gunman is wearing a vest) he/she slows down the team as they now have another armed and possibly injured person somewhere within an extremely chaotic situation.

It is very possible that this officer followed protocol exactly as he should have (possibly why he believes he did a good job), and is now being sacrificed and blamed to deflect from the sacrosanct NRA and gun laws.
 
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Dread Pirate Roberts said:
Out here in Vegas, I had to bring my kids something a few times. Just walked into the building via the main door, then walked into the office to drop it off. They weren't closed or locked. And the main door opens to a large open area and the cafeteria. It's a little scary, really. If someone just stormed in there at lunchtime, there would literally be hundreds of kids within 50 feet of the door completely exposed. Maybe that's changed in a couple of years, but I had to drop off something for my girlfriend a couple of weeks ago at her middle school and it was open as well.

The only time something like a metal detector wand was ever used were in certain schools while going to sporting events.
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Sounds exactly like my daughter's high school. And strangely enough no-one - school or parents - has the slightest concern or worry about it. Of course we are not located in the USA.
 
jimbob said:
Well he was completely outgunned, it's quite possible that if he didn't become a casualty himself, he might easily have missed and hit innocent people.

What would you have done in his position?

90-seconds after hearing the shooting starting, you get to the building, and hear semiautomatic rifle fire.

Your only firearm is a pistol that you trained with but have never used in action, and the accurate range is maybe a few scores of feet.

You do know that the rifle will significantly outrange you, and that the shooter has prepared enough to set off the fire alarm.


You won't know any more than that.


If you stay outside, you might be able to stop the shooter leaving the building. If you go in, you might shoot innocent people, you might get shot, you might struggle to find anyone.

As has been said upthread, going in with a pistol is basically an action movie.

At Colombine, the armed guard did exchange shots with the shooters but failed to hit them.
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The single armed guard is armed with a pistol.
He hears semi-automatic gunfire, so he is at least up against that
He doesn't know if there is more than one shooter

He is outgunned, out ranged and possibly outnumbered. In short, he doesn't have a chance, he WILL end up being a casualty

Same would apply to armed teachers. In almost all school shooting scenarios, the shooter is already in the school and nobody knows he is a shooter until he starts killing. There is panic with kids running all over the place. The shooter doesn't have to be careful where he is shooting, the teacher does. All that will happen is that the school will turn into the OK Corral, but much worse. There will be even more kids killed, a number of them by "friendly" fire.

Arming teachers is madness. Its a moronic idea from a moronic organisation fearful of its members losing their precious penis substitutes, and backed up by the dumbest President the USA has ever had.
 
I have taught at several high schools in Canada and all of them were the scary situation that the Dread Pirate Roberts describes. Doors are not locked, wide open spaces, no security guard, let alone an armed police officer. No students or teachers are worried about mass shooters. Now if those schools were moved a few kilometers south and therefore on the other side of the border, well I wouldn't dream of teaching there no matter how many stupid NRA suggestions the school followed. (I lived and worked in the US for several years, but as a scientist. No one could pay me enough to teach there).
 
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Chris Loesch, husband of the NRA's Dana Loesch, says they had to flee the scene of the CNN town hall fast because it could've gotten "dangerous" for them.

Send them your thoughts and prayers.
 
Wayward son said:
Hours ago I posted the name of a document about police responding to this type of situation. It was from a couple years ago so long after Columbine.

It said that policies differ widely between locations, but in general - lone officers going in was extremely dangerous. A team of about 4 was best to engage the shooter. Generally, only one team engages with others holding a perimeter. An SRO (which this officer was) being a part of that team helps it reach the shooter faster as the SRO knows the facility, whereas the other officers do not, and the SRO also likely has information about the shooter(s) which the other officers do not. Unless the lone officer going in immediately kills the gunman (his chances would be diminished if he is taking a handgun to an AR15 fight, and if the gunman is wearing a vest) he/she slows down the team as they now have another armed and possibly injured person somewhere within an extremely chaotic situation.

It is very possible that this officer followed protocol exactly as he should have (possibly why he believes he did a good job), and is now being sacrificed and blamed to deflect from the sacrosanct NRA and gun laws.
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I'm not sure how much an eighteenth injured person, but armed officer, makes it that substantially more difficult.
 
jimbob said:
You do know that the rifle will significantly outrange you, and that the shooter has prepared enough to set off the fire alarm.
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The fire alarm says absolutely nothing about the situation or the person's "preparedness".

In the small hallways inside buildings, the range discrepancy is nullified because no hallway will be longer than either weapon's range.

jimbob said:
If you stay outside, you might be able to stop the shooter leaving the building.
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How do any of the "problems" you cite when it comes to engagement magically evaporate when the shooter steps outside?

Have you even seen an aerial photograph of this school? Do you know whether the "position" the officer took up effectively covered a single entrance, let alone all the others?

jimbob said:
If you go in, you might shoot innocent people, you might get shot, you might struggle to find anyone.
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Innocent people are already being killed. And shot.

There's another one.

And other one.

And there's two more, dead.

Again - completely unarmed people with no weapon at all and no personal chance of survival whatsoever, intervened and saved lives in this incident.
 
jimbob said:
90-seconds after hearing the shooting starting, you get to the building, and hear semiautomatic rifle fire.

Your only firearm is a pistol that you trained with but have never used in action, and the accurate range is maybe a few scores of feet.
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Did you miss the part about him being a sheriff's deputy for many years and a military vet? We aren't talking Mallcop here.
 
deadrose said:
Did you miss the part about him being a sheriff's deputy for many years and a military vet? We aren't talking Mallcop here.
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That's another thing about this conversation I find annoying. He wasn't an "armed guard", he was a trained veteran police officer.
 
LTC8K6 said:
If the armed officer is not going to intervene against an intruder with a gun, then why is he there?

He either doesn't need to be there, or he doesn't need to be armed if the policy is not to confront an armed suspect.
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Well, he would still be allowed to shoot unarmed people if he thinks they might be drawing a gun. It is only when actual guns are in play that he is not required to shoot.

And of course now that the teachers will have hand guns they will be expected to do exactly what this man would not.
 
BobTheCoward said:
I'm not sure how much an eighteenth injured person, but armed officer, makes it that substantially more difficult.
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It's another armed person of unknown location in a chaotic situation. There is a reason why they go in as a team as ~4 instead of just sending in 4 officers randomly. This shouldn't be hard to understand. With the simplicity of how so many people think it is no wonder that problems every other developed country has solved are unsolvable in the US.

The kids understand what the problem is. The adults can't, not because the adults are incapable, but because they have had their brains rotted by ideological siloing.
 
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I believe the current trend in LE, with regard to active shooter response, is for a single officer to go ahead and attempt to neutralize the shooter, and to not wait for backup.
 
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