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California sued for denying existence of Bigfoot

Creekfreak's looked like a standard-issue off-the-shelf gorilla sitting in high weeds a few feet in front of a low-hovering helicopter. It was an interesting illusion caused by vegetation and shadows, but it wasn't a bigfoot.
 
Gee, I have spent lots of time in "Bigfoot Country" along the Northren California Coast and have never seen a sign of Bigfoot.
Lots of beautiful scenary, but little bigfoot....
 
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If CA does deny its existence, that's exactly one thing I can applaud CA for doing for as long as I can remember. Something tells me they haven't even done that though.

The counties in the Northwest part of the state, which make a lot of money through Bigfoot connected Tourism, would prevent that from happening.
Think a Bigfoot version of the Alien Tourist crap you see in Roswell,New Mexico and you pretty much have it.
 
Here's some coverage that embeds the actual complaint.

https://gizmodo.com/the-bigfoot-lawsuit-against-california-actually-makes-s-1823082037

It's pretty hilarious. Ignore the analysis by Gizmodo; it really adds nothing. The prayed relief includes a writ of mandamus, which would be an appropriate remedy if the relevant causes of action are proved. But the complaint also includes (para. 36) a prayer for declarative judgment that "Respondents infringed the constitutional rights of Petitioner as it relates to her concerns regarding Sasquatch."

Er, what?

The complaint states no cause of action that would be remedied thereby. That is, it does not spell out which of Ackley's "constitutional rights" have been infringed, or how. Basically, if you read between the lines of the rest of the complaint, it insinuates that Ackley has a constitutional right to have her research taken seriously and believed, and that it's somehow the State of California's fault that it isn't, and that she's allegedly a laughingstock.

This should be entertaining.

Maybe the constitutional right that was violated was freedom of religion, as belief in bigfoot seems to be as lacking in evidence as most religious beliefs. However, I don't believe there is any case law requiring government officials to pretend they share a citizens un-evidenced religious beliefs.

I'm pretty sure she's going to need something more than badly underexposed video and "I know what I saw" to convince a court to do anything she wants them to do.
 
I may be wrong about this but I think MK Davis believes Patty was caught in a Bigfoot massacre and there are other bigfoots hiding in the woods. He also believes Patty was shot in the thigh at the end of the film.
 
I may be wrong about this but I think MK Davis believes Patty was caught in a Bigfoot massacre and there are other bigfoots hiding in the woods. He also believes Patty was shot in the thigh at the end of the film.
"He may look like an idiot and talk like an idiot, but don't let that fool you. He really is an idiot." GM
 
ABC 7 News said:
Ackley said the sasquatch was perched in a tree, about 30 feet above the ground. She said there were two other sasquatches nearby.

The Sasquatch was perched up in the tree about 30 feet. The video in the article in post #48 shows her standing by the tree. About 30 feet up is where the big branch bends away from the trunk. That’s where the dark shape is that those videos focus in on. That’s the Bigfoot.

Now, this is creepy. I know you probably aren’t going to believe me. But I have video proof of this…

If you watch the video I posted, she is standing about where she was in the original video from over a year ago. The camera is in about the same position. If you look at about 30 feet up the tree where that dark shape was, what do you see? It’s the same dark shape! The Bigfoot is still there! Run! Run! Woop! Run!
 
The counties in the Northwest part of the state, which make a lot of money through Bigfoot connected Tourism, would prevent that from happening.
Think a Bigfoot version of the Alien Tourist crap you see in Roswell,New Mexico and you pretty much have it.


I somehow doubt that an official denial from the state government would put much of a dent in Bigfoot tourism. :rolleyes:
 
I somehow doubt that an official denial from the state government would put much of a dent in Bigfoot tourism. :rolleyes:

And I doubt it would have the deleterious effect on Bigfoot pseudoscience that its practitioners say they fear. If the notion of Bigfoot were to be normalized, they would sink into relative obscurity along with the rest of zoology. Ever see those big marine isopods? Imagine a giant pill bug the size of a shoe box. Striking appearance. But how many marine biologists can you name off the top of your head who study the Bathynomus genus? It's not a profession or field of study that generally leads to celebrity. The prospect of making Bigfoot part of Real Science is that those who study it would soon become Real Scientists and thus properly sink into the obscurity in which nearly all Real Scientists work.

One of the tenets of fringe argumentation is that its claimants make a big fuss about wanting to be taken seriously by the mainstream. But out of the other side of their mouths, they revel in the controversy. It's the controversy that makes them relevant and special, and the rejection from the mainstream enlivens the controversy.
 
JayUtah said:
But how many marine biologists can you name off the top of your head who study the Bathynomus genus? It's not a profession or field of study that generally leads to celebrity.
In a hypothetical world where Bigfoot does exist you could have "celebrity" scientists who study them and are household names. That was the situation with Jane Goodall and chimpanzees.
 
The Sasquatch was perched up in the tree about 30 feet. The video in the article in post #48 shows her standing by the tree. About 30 feet up is where the big branch bends away from the trunk. That’s where the dark shape is that those videos focus in on. That’s the Bigfoot.

Now, this is creepy. I know you probably aren’t going to believe me. But I have video proof of this…

If you watch the video I posted, she is standing about where she was in the original video from over a year ago. The camera is in about the same position. If you look at about 30 feet up the tree where that dark shape was, what do you see? It’s the same dark shape! The Bigfoot is still there! Run! Run! Woop! Run!

Since it's been in exactly the same place and same position for a year, it's got to be dead. This is a golden opportunity to get proof positive of the existence of bigfoot. Climb the tree and recover the (no doubt mummified by now) body. :D
 
Maybe the constitutional right that was violated was freedom of religion, as belief in bigfoot seems to be as lacking in evidence as most religious beliefs.

That would be as novel a legal theory as any of the ones suggested in the complaint.

As I see it, the petition will probably as a matter of fact due to lack of evidence, and additionally fails as a matter of law on most of its claims. In form of law -- at least as I as as layman understand American law -- the prayer for relief for "infringement of constitutional rights" fails summarily for failing to state a cause of action that would justify that relief. That is, the petition seems ill-formed in that way. Normally -- as I understand the rules -- in order to ask a court for relief you need to state a cause of action that alleges the specific acts done or not done, but also identifies what law was broken. That bit's required in order to explain specifically what's wrong with the acts and thereby why the respondent should be liable for any effects. A cause of action alleging a violation of constitutional rights would have to point to the part of the Constitution that the complained-of acts violated. It's not enough just to allege that someone did something or didn't do something else.

But I don't know if a petition for a writ of mandamus is the same as a civil complaint under California (or anyone's) law. My impression is that if your filing with the court is for a writ of mandamus, then a writ of mandamus is all you should pray for in it and expect to receive from it. But I might be wrong. The filing is labeled as a petition for write of mandate (same thing as mandamus), but is written out as if it were a civil complaint. And I just don't know enough about legal procedure to know if that's how it's supposed to be done.

As far as the writ of mandamus would go, the petition seems reasonably in order. The relevant causes of action lay out elements of the California agency's mandate and directives, and alleges facts that would, if proven, support an order from the court directing the agency to make similar efforts regarding Bigfoot -- along the lines of those mission statements -- as it does for other animals and their habitat. Petitioner alleges that California has an obligation to protect its public lands and wildlife from inappropriate action by humans, and likewise to inform and protect people against the dangers present on those lands. Petitioner alleges facts treating the sensitivity of Bigfoot's environment and the supposed dangerous nature of the purport creature. Since we're not at the stage where we test the evidence, that would seem to be an appropriate pleading at this point.

But the petition goes on to claim Petitioner has been injured. Specifically she claims that California's "denial" of Bigfoot relegates her sincere and dedicated scientific efforts the realm of pseudoscience and the paranormal. I enquote "denial" because it's not clear from the petition to what degree, if any, California has denied the existence and nature of Bigfoot. Denial in this sense would seem to be an affirmative act, and the petition alleges no such affirmation. Simply not acting in a way consistent with a belief that Bigfoot exists does not rise to a high degree of malfeasance. The petition merely alleges that California "knows or should know" that Bigfoot exists. That implies California was obliged to interpret the scientific evidence in the light most favorable to Bigfoot fans.

Back the Petitioner, though. She makes a claim that sounds in defamation, but defamation is not, as I understand it, a constitutional matter. It's a matter of tort, which lives in statute and not in the Constitution. To be sure, she has a right not to be defamed. But a complaint alleging defamation would have to be brought under civil law according to state laws governing defamation, not as a matter of constitutional law. Here too I am not aware of any legal construction that makes someone liable for defamation solely via his inaction. (Negligence, in contrast, is a tort arising from inaction toward an ordinary duty of care, but that's not where we are.) Petitioner desires a reputation as a serious scientist, and alleges that the state's inaction in endorsing her subject of study has somehow injured her by preventing her from attaining that reputation.

Um, okay.

However, I don't believe there is any case law requiring government officials to pretend they share a citizens un-evidenced religious beliefs.

Or unevidenced pseudoscientific beliefs. Or any beliefs. The state is often bound to respect beliefs, but not to endorse them. Moreover I fail to see how the state has any obligation to advance the reputation of some individual researcher by giving some sort of imprimatur. It's questionable how much that endorsement would matter anyway. The factors affecting one's reputation in a scientific community don't seem to have much to do with government endorsement.

I'm pretty sure she's going to need something more than badly underexposed video and "I know what I saw" to convince a court to do anything she wants them to do.

It reminds me a little of the Truther lawsuits, and -- way back in the 1990s -- a few lawsuits from Apollo deniers. It seems that a number of fringe claimants really are so out of touch with the objective credibility of their claims that they think they have any chance to prevail in court. Either that or they just want the publicity. It's often very amusing to see their reaction when the legal system stops them dead in their tracks.

I gather the people leading this circus plan to present a buttload of their standard evidence. It's reasonable to suppose it will be of the same low and unconvincing quality as we've already seen.

Courts are understandably reluctant to rule on questions that look like declarations of scientific validity. Rulings of law are of a different normative character than conclusions over scientific evidence. The courts don't hold, for example, that the Standard Model is the mandated view of elementary particles to the exclusion of all others. They don't suppress or fail conspicuously to endorse competing claims. Where a question of scientific holding becomes material to a legal question, I've always seen the courts defer to the relevant scientists themselves to see whether a sufficient rigor and consensus exists among them to support justiciability. It may very well come down to the court dismissing the petition on the grounds that it's not a kind of question a court can decide. And even if it doesn't dismiss, the facts are not on the Petitioner's side. All excuses aside, there is no consensus in the academic and professional zoology community that the evidence supports the reality of Bigfoot as a new, real species. Sure, you can have Meldrum talk up a storm on the stand. But at the end of the day, the fact remains that the scientific community of which Meldrum is a part has an opposing consensus. That's the fact that I think would end up weighing most in court.

Generally anyone who acts under color of law has to do so with a rational basis. Where discretion is allowed -- as it is and ought to be in some cases -- it is still subject to rational review, but only if its discretion appears irrational. Discretion among similarly rational alternatives doesn't really come under judicial scrutiny, in my experience. Since the California agency has the power to enjoin behavior, it could conceivably be forced to post signs warning people to keep out of suspected Bigfoot habitat, and to cite and fine them for violations. That's an infringement upon people's right to access public lands, and it would have to have a rational basis to hold up under scrutiny. Since the agency would be liable for the effects of such infringements, it has discretion in how to make and enforce those rules. It also has discretion in how best to manage the resources that have been appropriated for it. Petitioner wants the state to aid in her study of Bigfoot, an enterprise that would compete with all other activities consistent with the agency's mission. The agency has discretion in determining the most likely beneficial outcome from its stewardship of resources, and it would be somewhat a violation of separation of powers for a court to mandate that an agency of the executive exercise its discretion in a particular way.

I don't see this ending in a non-amusing way.
 
In a hypothetical world where Bigfoot does exist you could have "celebrity" scientists who study them and are household names. That was the situation with Jane Goodall and chimpanzees.

That's a good point. We do have celebrity scientists, and I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. It's not the norm, though. How many other chimpanzee researchers can you name? I don't think I'm amiss in saying that despite a few exceptions, most mainstream scientists remain obscure, and practicing science in the normal way does not usually lead to general celebrity.

But I should amend my argument to account better for the exceptions. What appeals to fringe claimants is the David v. Goliath pattern. It's the prospect of individual crusaders against powerful mainstream interests. Jade Goodall is notable not because she fought Goliath and won, but for other reasons. She's very good at what she does, and made legitimate important findings. So in a hypothetical world where Bigfoot exists -- or in a future this-world where convincing evidence of Bigfoot may finally emerge -- you won't necessarily have room at the top for all the Bigfoot researchers who want the spotlight. And more importantly, they won't be as interested in that kind of spotlight. It's not necessarily that they want to be noted; they want to be noted for doing a specific thing -- i.e., standing up to the Man.
 
It will work out great for the Bigfooters if the court throws out the lawsuit without a trial. They can say that it is confirmation of a government conspiracy to suppress the knowledge of the existence of Bigfoot.
 
I’m not real clear on the technical details of a writ of mandate either. There are two types of mandate: administrative and ordinary (also called traditional). An administrative mandate is quasi-judicial. This occurs when a government agency is required to hold a hearing, review evidence, and issue a subjective decision. An ordinary mandate is quasi-legislative. This type of mandate concerns a government agency’s rules, policies, and procedures established for carries out its legal duties.

This petition is for an ordinary mandate. That means even if California were legally required to acknowledge the existence of any species, the court would not make a determination of whether Bigfoot exists or order California to acknowledge the existence of Bigfoot. That would be an administrative decision. Instead, the court would only review the policies and procedures used by California to determine the existence of a species and whether those procedures were adequate and were being carried out. It would then be up to California to follow those procedures in determining whether or not to acknowledge the existence of Bigfoot. But that’s only if such a law existed.

The ordinary mandate is authorized under CCP 1085:

A writ of mandate may be issued by any court to any inferior tribunal, corporation, board, or person, to compel the performance of an act which the law specially enjoins, as a duty resulting from an office, trust, or station, or to compel the admission of a party to the use and enjoyment of a right or office to which the party is entitled, and from which the party is unlawfully precluded by that inferior tribunal, corporation, board, or person.

There is little evidence that failure to investigate diseases and problems related to Bigfoot has personally injured the Petitioner. There is no specific right cited that she has been denied. “There be a clear, present, ministerial duty upon the part of the respondent and a correlative clear, present, and beneficial right in the petitioner to the performance of that duty.” (Sego v. Santa Monica Rent Control Bd., 1997). “…unless this right is made to appear the application should be denied.” (Potter v. City Council of Port Hueneme, 1951).

That means there has to be a specific law that California is compelled to perform. Mission statements on websites are not specific laws. Therefore, those causes of action are out. That leaves us with the one specific law cited:

According to Fish & Wildlife Code Section 1008, the CDFW “shall investigate all diseases of, and problems relating to, birds, mammals, or fish, and establish and maintain laboratories to assist in such investigation.”

There are obviously some problems here. That specific law makes no mention of acknowledging any species. That’s pretty much the end of that. Even if those were somehow construed as being related, the relief requested seems to be unavailing. The mere acknowledgement of a species does not itself compel CDFW to investigate Bigfoot. CDFW can’t do laboratory studies without a specimen. What are the diseases of Bigfoot? Note that “problems” here likely does not mean public safety. CDFW primarily regulates hunting and fishing. It does not protect the public from wildlife (other than its enforcement of laws regarding killing of animals, which is sometimes permitted of non-game animals causing or threatening to cause injury to persons or property).

Petitioner claims injury and denial of rights not related to the cause of action and requests relief that Respondent is not legally required to perform and which the court could not grant anyway under an ordinary mandate. The court will give the petition the boot. It won’t get past arguing the legal validity of the petition.
 
According to Fish & Wildlife Code Section 1008, the CDFW “shall investigate all diseases of, and problems relating to, birds, mammals, or fish, and establish and maintain laboratories to assist in such investigation.”
We wouldn't know if Bigfoot is a bird or a mammal or a fish or even something else like a reptile. We have no specimen and no other evidence can be authenticated.
 

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