School shooting Florida

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Civet said:
I've half-joked before that I'd have a lot more respect for gangbanger types if they settled their disputes through some sort of formal dueling process using edged or blunt weapons. Shows real grit and spares the innocent bystanders.
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Knives and machetes are popular killing weapons where guns are uncommon or are not affordable. It's typical in the third world and anywhere with very low income. People don't stop murdering when they can't get guns - they use something else to kill.
 
Nessie said:
The problem with that is, with 250-280 million guns in the USA and many people not interested in cooperating with any gun control, sorting it so only suitable people have the guns is impossible.
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There are laws now regarding "suitable" people that prohibit convicted felons, domestic abusers, the adjudicated mentally ill etc. from purchasing or owning firearms. Those laws could be tightened, including requiring background checks for all sales and transfers, which is not the case now. There could also be computerized databases tracking who's stockpiling guns and ammunition, something that is actually prohibited now by federal law.

There is no possibility that all guns could be banned. But tougher restrictions could be imposed on semi-auto rifles and pistols, comparable to the NFA restrictions now in place for machine guns and sawed-off shotguns. Most/all civilian purposes for keeping guns can be fulfilled with revolvers, bolt-action rifles and pump-action shotguns.

And I think the average citizen is willing to comply with the law, simply to avoid the potential consequences of violating it.

Throwing up one's ands and saying "It's all impossible!" is not a solution.

ETA: Also, a large majority of Americans don't own any firearms at all, and only three percent of Americans own half of all firearms. Tougher gun restrictions would find broad public support if they could get through Congress.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics...made-americans-fear-their-own-government.html
 
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William Parcher said:
Knives and machetes are popular killing weapons where guns are uncommon or are not affordable. It's typical in the third world and anywhere with very low income. People don't stop murdering when they can't get guns - they use something else to kill.
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Sure. But they kill much less efficiently. And in a crowd, most people can run from a guy waving a knife or a machete, and one guy might have a chance to defend himself against another; an AR15 with 30-round magazines, not so much.

The UK certainly has plenty of knives, axes, machetes, hammers, screw drivers, sharp sticks, broken bottles, etc., etc. But the overall murder rate by all means is much lower than in the U.S., and the rate of mass murder in the UK approaches zero. That's because in the UK, you can't pick up a gun and open fire.
 
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jimbob said:
another example is the decline in British suicides, with the switch from toxic "town gas" or "coal gas" (rich in carbon monoxide) to natural gas

Look at figure 4 in this paper from 1976

http://jech.bmj.com/content/jech/30/2/86.full.pdf

Yes, there was a slight compensation increase in other suicide methods, but not sufficient to remove it.
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That's a classic, and used to be my go-to example (but American kids find pills rather than old ovens more relatable).
 
Shalamar said:
Why is it that people can strap a pistol to their belt, and that's fine. But if I do the same with a sword, people get nervous? Are they not both 'arms'?
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Normal people do ****** up things when ****** up things become normal. Unfortunately, in our society, carrying guns is relatively normal. Carrying a sword is not. Interestingly, if the sword bearer were dressed like he'd come from Middle-Earth, he would feel like less of a threat. A gun-wearer simply "looks the part" of a modern American.
 
Third-graders are selling AR-15 raffle tickets in Missouri

Kansas City Star said:
Third-graders in a Missouri community are continuing to sell raffle tickets for an AR-15 to benefit their traveling baseball team after the same type of rifle was used to slaughter and injure dozens at a Florida school.

Levi Patterson, the coach of a 9-and-under baseball team in Neosho, Mo., told The Star the idea was conceived before the shooting in Parkland, Fla.

A father of one of the players — who co-founded Black Rain Ordnance Inc., a weapons purveyor in Neosho — offered the weapon for the raffle.

Patterson said by phone Saturday that he considered finding a different raffle item after Wednesday’s mass shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, but ultimately decided to “turn it into a positive thing” after “getting the hate.”...
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http://www.kansascity.com/news/state/missouri/article200763099.html
 
Dr.Sid said:
I never said Florida shooting was hot headed action. I meant that if you have gun at hand, it can help to transform bad mood into murder. That's the case, where not having the gun at hand might help. And I opposed, that in planed action, the fact you don't have gun EASILY available, might not help. You might be willing to get over obstacles, and get the gun, or find some other means.



Yes, there is very few legal and thus illegal guns in UK. But UK regulated guns heavily even before WW2, and it worked on regulation since then. It has decades of strict regulation. That's why it's so hard to get illegal gun in UK. It would be different in US.
Btw. there is nothing like EU gun law, not yet, though there are calls for one.



Sure, there are tools for killing, but tools none the less. They are not the reason for killing. I never compared them to knives, much less kitchen knives.

You really are arguing with your own interpretation of what I was trying to say. Sure, I'm not native speaker, but is it really so bad ?




Ban on 'keeping loaded guns in their homes' is 100% unrealistic in US. It's not in effect in any EU country. How did that even occur to you ?

More than third of US citizens have guns. Most of them have more then one. Some have tens, or even hundred. Estimated guns per capita in US is 101 guns per 100 citizens (wiki).

There is no centralized registry of the guns. In case of the ban, many of them, if not most, would end up being held illegally, and large number will end up on black market, sooner or later, or they could be stolen. For decades it will be easy to get gun on black market. Such huge amount of guns just wont vanish overnight, especially since people won't want to give them up. Many gun owner share the 'from my cold, dead hand' sentiment.
You can't say 'it works in UK, it will work in US'. The situation is completely different.
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Afaik, there are strict laws in the UK (and presumably also elsewhere in the EU) against private ordinary citizens keeping loaded guns in their homes, except of course for certain groups inc. farmers using shotguns. But afaik, it is not possible/legal for any ordinary citizen in the UK to simply decide that they would like to make an enthusiast hobby of collecting high power hand guns and automatic rapid firing rifles etc., and to just go and buy those things along with a huge pile of bullets and keep all that in their own home (regardless of having any special locked cabinet or whatever). IOW – afaik, they will not be allowed a license for those sort of guns or any other sort of guns simple because they say it's a hobby and that they like guns and bullets!

But yes, of course the USA is a different place to the UK or other countries in Europe, and it seems with a historically very different attitude towards gun ownership. That's why the US now has such a huge gun problem, whereas other nations like the UK do not have anywhere near such a big problem.

And yes, of course, there will be considerable difficulties trying to pass laws that prevent free home ownership of lethal guns in the US, not to mention changing laws that currently allow "open carry" (if that's what it's called?). One obvious problem is that gun shops would go out of business, and no doubt there would be all sorts of objections about people losing their jobs and gun manufacturers going bust etc.


Footnote – Here's a BBC article setting out why it's almost impossible for ordinary UK citizens to have guns and bullets kept in their own home -

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10220974

And here's a short extract from that article (to save you reading it all) -

Getting a licence
Getting a licence is a long and complicated business. Every stage of the process is designed to reduce the likelihood of a gun falling into the wrong hands. It starts with an application form which asks specific questions about why the individual wants a gun, telling them they need to show "good reason".

The criteria are tougher for firearms than shotguns because weapons that fire bullets must only be used for specific purposes in specific places. These would include deer stalking or sports shooting on an approved range.

In contrast, shotguns tend to be used in more general rural circumstances, such as by farmers who are protecting livestock from foxes - and police recognise that landowners need guns for pest control.


A Google search has this to say about UK laws of gun ownership -

“You cannot own fully automatic firearms, semi-automatic firearms of calibre greater than .22, or handguns. ... A firearms licence for a rifle, however, is harder to get because you have to have a good reason to have one.”
 
Bob001 said:
Sure. But they kill much less efficiently.
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The number of people murdered with edged weapons worldwide is probably staggering. Thousands are slaughtered in Africa using machetes. One guy on a rampage can kill dozens.
 
William Parcher said:
The number of people murdered with edged weapons worldwide is probably staggering. Thousands are slaughtered in Africa using machetes. One guy on a rampage can kill dozens.
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Cite? Rwanda was a government-sponsored genocide. How many "rampages" by ordinary criminals happen on the streets?
 
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William Parcher said:
The number of people murdered with edged weapons worldwide is probably staggering. Thousands are slaughtered in Africa using machetes. One guy on a rampage can kill dozens.
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Are you suggesting that the thousands slaughtered by machetes in Africa are being killed by lone madmen?

If so, I think you might be mistaken.

When our schools start being invaded by groups of machete armed terrorists bent on ethnic cleansing then there might be an opportunity for comparison.
 
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Bob001 said:
Cite? Rwanda was a government-sponsored genocide. How many "rampages" by ordinary criminals happen on the streets?
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I don't know where to find cites for local murders in these places. There are videos of machete bloodbaths. They are available and cheap when you can't get a gun.

When guns are unavailable the edged weapons are the common murder tool in these countries and regions.
 
JoeMorgue said:
An NRA perspective:



Okay but that doesn't really answer the question.

Again even the NRA's (I'm still convinced highly inflated) membership numbers are only about 4-5 million. That's not enough to be that big of a force to prevent something this big from being debated.

I think the Liberals have just decided to throw their hands up and go "We can't do anything because of the NRA!"

By comparison the AARP has 37 million members. If the NRA could totally shutdown one of the 3 or 4 biggest divisive "causes" the AARP should be able to rule the known galaxy.
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Effective lobbying. They don't have to win over a nation, just a very small number of people who vote for or against laws.
 
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