School shooting Florida

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Darat said:
There is simply no way you can write legislation that would control gun ownership as a Mk 3 version 12 series 8a made by Bob Smith on Friday 13th June 2012 can be converted to a non fully automatic bump loading grenade launcher by anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of steel casting, gun powder production and a working foundry?
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Of course you can. You just need to think about it a bit and know at least something about guns. The AWB of 1994 failed for that reason; the idiots who wrote the law didn't know a damn thing about guns other than they didn't like they way they looked.
 
Ranb said:
Of course I don't like it. No one does. What are you getting at?
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That you are ignoring reality using a few repeating talking points to close your mind to any discussion.

A shooter will find another way to kill.
Maybe but with a lower fatality count.
Maybe but with a bomb that takes skill, the bomb will fail.
Maybe not if the killing was impulsive as opposed to planned.
Maybe if this kid wasn't playing with his assault weapons every day for a year he wouldn't have talked himself into shooting up the school.​
 
Bob001 said:
Precision in language is important, particularly regarding legal matters. The U.S. imposed a 10-year ban on "assault weapons" in 1994.
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The ban was a ban in name only. Anyone who has actually read the law knows this. No guns were turned in or destroyed. The same guns with a cosmetic change here and there were continuously available from 94-04.

But because of how the legislation was written, manufacturers were able to easily modify their AR15s to comply with the letter of the law and evade the broader intent.
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I don't really think anyone with half a brain thought the broader intent was to make semi-auto guns less available. If that was the intent, then all semi-auto guns would have been restricted, not the just "scary looking" ones.
 
Ranb said:
Of course you can. You just need to think about it a bit and know at least something about guns. The AWB of 1994 failed for that reason; the idiots who wrote the law didn't know a damn thing about guns other than they didn't like they way they looked.
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Another one of your repeating talking points.
One could correct the legislation after the fact.
One can outlaw the modifications including things like make it a crime to invent and market things like bumpstocks intended to get around the machine gun prohibition, punishable by a fine big enough to make it unprofitable. (Aren't sawed off shotguns illegal?)
One might have to update the legislation from time to time.
​
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Another one of your repeating talking points.
One could correct the legislation after the fact.​
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Who is going to do this? Even the Democrat controlled Congress was unwilling to do so when they had the chance.

Skeptic Ginger said:
One can outlaw the modifications including things like make it a crime to invent and market things like bumpstocks intended to get around the machine gun prohibition, punishable by a fine big enough to make it unprofitable.
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Where will military weapons come from then? Someone has to invent and market stuff even if it isn't to civilians.

What MG prohibition? You talking about the Hughes amendment to the FOPA of 1986?

Skeptic Ginger said:
(Aren't sawed off shotguns illegal?)
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The federal government doesn't ban any type of firearm; never has. They tax, put certain obstacles in place for registration and have sentencing enhancements for criminals that use certain type. There are no federal bans on any small arms in the USA. Amazing how hard it is for some people to wrap their heads around that.​
 
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Skeptic Ginger said:
That you are ignoring reality using a few repeating talking points to close your mind to any discussion.
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The reality is that school killings are done with more than guns. I never suggested that guns didn't make it easier to do. Not sure why people insist that I am.
 
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Bob001 said:
I note that your Savage M12 is a bolt-action rifle that holds four rounds. Depending on the caliber, it sells for about $400 in the U.S.
http://www.cabelas.com/product/SAVAGE-FV-VARMINT-RIFLE/1994604.uts

The universally available (in the U.S.) AR15-style rifles are semi-auto and can empty 30-round magazines in a few seconds. What would you have to do to get one in NZ?
http://www.cabelas.com/catalog/brow...&CQ_sort=priceLow&CQ_ztype=GNP&CQ_pagesize=90
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You couldn't get one at all in the UK. If you want a weapon in that calibre it has to be a single shot weapon.
You can have a semi-auto but it can only be in 22lr.
I used to have a Ruger semi auto and a 22lr that looked like an AR15 but was limited to 22lr and had no parts in the receiver or barrel that could be interchanged with a 'real' AR15.

There are no limits on clip or magazine size in the UK and no restrictions on moderators.

There are no calibre limits on rifles but for each rifle you want to buy you have to show a need for it or you don't get it added to your Certificate.
 
Darat said:
Mike, Mike don't you know unless you get down to the manufacturer, model, series and production run of a particular gun you can't say anything meaningful about gun control.

There is simply no way you can write legislation that would control gun ownership as a Mk 3 version 12 series 8a made by Bob Smith on Friday 13th June 2012 can be converted to a non fully automatic bump loading grenade launcher by anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of steel casting, gun powder production and a working foundry?
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That would be me then!
 
jimbob said:
Indeed, it was the whole of the UK, as it was after Hungerford. After Hungerford, semi-automatic rifles were banned. After Dunblane, semi-automatic pistols were banned.
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Semi automatics were partially banned. You can still have a 22lr semi - auto.
 
Nessie said:
Please name the Olympic disciplines that involve firearms that are illegal in the UK.

There is plenty of British shooting and training for Olympic events in the UK, as shown here;

http://britishshooting.org.uk/
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50 meter pistol, 25 metre pistol, 25 metre rapid fire pistol, 25 meter center-fire pistol, 25 meter standard pistol.

All the weapons for these events are banned in the UK. If any British team wants to compete they have to keep their pistols and do their training abroad.

the only pistol discipline that can be practiced in the UK is the 10 meter air pistol.
 
Ranb said:
The ban was a ban in name only. Anyone who has actually read the law knows this. No guns were turned in or destroyed. The same guns with a cosmetic change here and there were continuously available from 94-04.

I don't really think anyone with half a brain thought the broader intent was to make semi-auto guns less available. If that was the intent, then all semi-auto guns would have been restricted, not the just "scary looking" ones.
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The law was the result of numerous compromises. It allowed some legislators to claim they were doing something about guns, and others to claim they were protecting the rights of law-abiding sportsmen. It didn't accomplish much. Paradoxically, it was probably a gift to the gun industry; in fear of a tougher future law, people rushed out to buy AR15s etc. "while they still could."
 
Ranb said:
Who is going to do this? Even the Democrat controlled Congress was unwilling to do so when they had the chance.
....
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The problem is that the Americans who support tougher gun laws -- a substantial majority by most surveys -- see it as one of many good government measures they would like to enact. But the people who oppose them -- backed by the money and propaganda of the NRA -- are "one-issue" voters. They will vote for anybody who promises to save their gun "rights" no matter who they are or what else they will or won't do. It's more a matter of cultural identity than a public policy choice.
 
Ranb said:
The reality is that school killings are done with more than guns. I never suggested that guns didn't make it easier to do. Not sure why people insist that I am.
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Yeah, but the only bit that counts is the guns. Nothing else they use causes the carnage they seek.
 
Vixen said:
Dunblane counts as one of the most chilling pieces of news I ever heard. I recall I was lunching in a bar in Euston Station, when I caught the 'developing news'
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I was travelling by train from Glasgow to Stirling when there was an announcement that the train would be making an unscheduled stop in Dunblane, which is past Stirling on the journey from Glasgow. Out of interest I asked the ticket inspector why this (very unusual) change, and he replied that a madman had gone into the school in Dunblane with a gun and killed the children. I remember not feeling anything at all about that. The words simply didn't make sense. It was only when I alighted in Stirling and went to a cafe for lunch, where I saw the TV coverage of this horrible event, that I started to feel anything identifiable as shock.

Now, I try to imagine a country where comparable events happen again and again! but some sort of social paralysis appears to prevent the citizens and their elected politicians from taking even the most obvious measures to prevent these atrocities.
 
School shooter showed violence and mental instability at home, police reports reveal

CNN said:
For years before Nikolas Cruz gunned down classmates and teachers at his former high school, his mother had repeatedly called police to the home to help deal with his violent outbursts, threats and self-destructive behavior, according to police documents obtained by CNN on Friday.

The incident reports, which are as recent as September 2016, describe Cruz as suffering from mental illness and being "emotionally handicapped," and being on behavioral medication. One notes, "He has mentioned in the past that he would like to purchase a firearm."...

Yet Cruz was still able to pass the nation's gun background check system in February 2017 and obtain an AR-15-style semiautomatic rifle. The vast majority of the police calls resulted in "no paperwork filed," according to a list obtained by CNN on Thursday. But the few that are described in police reports detail Cruz's multiple outbursts...

The mother told police her son had a "history of developmental and learning disabilities," was "increasingly irate" and suffered from ADHD. Back when he was too young to legally buy a rifle, her son had mentioned he wanted to buy a gun. Now he was "cutting his arms ... to get attention," she told them, according to one police report dated September 28, 2016...

The nation's gun-buying background check system is supposed to keep firearms out of reach for dangerous individuals. But it's not meant to catch early warning signs like those exhibited by Cruz. The system checks for felony convictions, instances of domestic violence, addiction to illegal drugs and involuntary commitments due to mental illness. But it does not check for school expulsions, other mental health history or domestic disturbances that do not result in criminal charges. The system also does not review a person's public statements or explicit threats to commit violence, such as Cruz's multiple comments online -- in his own name -- in which he boldly declared his intentions.

"I wanna shoot people with my AR-15," said one. "Im going to be a professional school shooter," said another...
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Many more details in the article.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/16/us/florida-shooter-cruz-records-police-calls-to-home-invs/index.html
 
jimbob said:
The families affected seem to want something done about firearms law
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And I long to dine upon the savory flesh of barbecued unicorn. They can have memorials, grief counseling maybe even some sort of celebrity visit. Gun control though?
I will say, though, that Trump probably has more power to effect some sort of meaningful change in gun laws than anyone else would in the same office. I believe that there's a great deal of overlap between his base and the gun enthusiast community. It took Nixon to go to China. Also, it would be a great distraction from his other troubles.
 
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