School shooting Florida

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Bob001 said:
I note that your Savage M12 is a bolt-action rifle that holds four rounds. Depending on the caliber, it sells for about $400 in the U.S.
http://www.cabelas.com/product/SAVAGE-FV-VARMINT-RIFLE/1994604.uts
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Mine's a bit nicer than that. I have a Savage M12 LRP pretty much identical to this one...

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/747643331

...except that mine is chambered 243 Win (not 223 Rem) and the scope is a Leupold Mark AR 3-9X (not a Vari x-iii)

ETA: Mine came in a Pelican case, but no wheels.

Bob001 said:
The universally available (in the U.S.) AR15-style rifles are semi-auto and can empty 30-round magazines in a few seconds. What would you have to do to get one in NZ?
http://www.cabelas.com/catalog/brow...&CQ_sort=priceLow&CQ_ztype=GNP&CQ_pagesize=90
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An AR-15 would be a MSSA (Military Style Semi Automatic). I've never investigated buying one (not really interested in that kind of rate of fire) but I think

1. I would have to be a bona-fide gun collector (Class C endorsement)
http://www.police.govt.nz/advice/firearms-and-safety/firearms-licensing-collectors-and-dealers

2. Each MSSA would require a specific endorsement for that rifle (only one endorsement fee for multiple rifles)
http://www.police.govt.nz/about-us/...rms-act-1983-semi-automatic-firearm-air-rifle

3. I would not be allowed to import anything that wasn't on the approved list
http://www.police.govt.nz/advice/fi...new-=Go&edit-submit-approved-firearms-new-=Go
 
This is The End said:
That would be like saying "19 year-olds in chess club really seem to dig FPS games".

Or, more accurately, "Boy these school shooters sure seem to like to eat breakfast. They all eat breakfast!!"

In fact, you are much more likely to find a 19 year old in America that skips breakfast than one who has not played a FPS. No, really.

These things have sold hundreds of millions of copies. The vast majority of all 19 year-olds really seem to dig FPS games.

A game in a related genre, Grand Theft Auto 5, has sold over 90 million copies just by itself.

Video games are no more to blame than legal guns.
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Well I didn't say blame, did I? In fact I think I specifically said I didn't believe there was a causative relationship. You even quoted it.
 
Bob001 said:
Explain or justify? The explanation is that the gun lobby is strong, it donates many millions of dollars to political campaigns, and legislators respond to donors.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...own-a-rife-or-shotgun/?utm_term=.a8e5f21dfc93

Justify? Not so much.

I note that the semi-autos commonly available are NOT machine guns. Civilians can buy machine guns too, but it's a cumbersome process that requires a federal license. The Las Vegas shooter killed 58 people and wounded 500+ with semi-autos that he bought legally.
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That's only a splitting-hairs difference, particularly as teenagers theoretically could buy a machine gun. This is a weapon that spits out bullets at a fearsome rate. Call it semi-automatic if that makes you feel better about it. (Collective you, not personal you).
 
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Parsman said:
How often? And how many children do they kill? In the last 5 years have they killed as many people as this gun totting individual did in less than 1 day? Yes if you are determined enough you could probably kill someone with a white board eraser or a marker pen. Guns make it much easier to kill far more people. You don't like that, I get it. But it is a fact.
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I agree. The old "killers can use other weapons to kill in schools" chestnut is a pretty vacuous argument. Yes, of course they can, but a gun is the only weapon (other than a bomb) that a killer can take into a school and kill and maim schoolkids by the dozen in just a couple of minutes.

Also, kids can run away run away from a person wielding a knife, and they are out of stabbing range after a couple of steps. They can't run away from a shooter; he'll gun them down.

Anyone who thinks that Cruz could have just taken a knife into the school and killed 17 kids & teachers, and injured another 14 is just deluding themselves.
 
This is The End said:
I know that you know what a bomb is. I also know that you know just how easy it is to make a very big one.

So, in other words, hahaha, great swimming pool joke there...
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The Columbine kids made pipe bombs. How many people did those bombs kill?

The whole "they'll just make bombs" thing is so ****** retarded. No, it's really not THAT easy to go and build a bomb. "I'm drunk and angry, I'll manufacture an explosive device!" The Unabomber was a genius and he killed seven(?) people. The Boston bombers killed two people?

Why don't we allow out of work engineers to sell bombs? People can (and will) make them anyway. If you outlaw bombs, only outlaws will have bombs.

Here's the thing about criminals: Generally speaking, they're stupid. Stupid and impulsive. The more hoops you make them jump through, the more likely you are to trip them up.
 
Cain said:
The Columbine kids made pipe bombs. How many people did those bombs kill?

The whole "they'll just make bombs" thing is so ****** retarded. No, it's really not THAT easy to go and build a bomb. "I'm drunk and angry, I'll manufacture an explosive device!" The Unabomber was a genius and he killed seven(?) people. The Boston bombers killed two people?

Why don't we allow out of work engineers to sell bombs? People can (and will) make them anyway. If you outlaw bombs, only outlaws will have bombs.

Here's the thing about criminals: Generally speaking, they're stupid. Stupid and impulsive. The more hoops you make them jump through, the more likely you are to trip them up.
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Amen.
 
MikeG said:
That's only a splitting-hairs difference, particularly as teenagers theoretically could buy a machine gun. This is a weapon that spits out bullets at a fearsome rate. Call it semi-automatic if that makes you feel better about it. (Collective you, not personal you).
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No, they are different in fact and in the laws, and it only weakens gun control advocates to misstate the facts. A semi-auto fires once each time the trigger is pulled; a machine gun fires continuously from the time the trigger is pulled until it is released or the magazine is empty. Some states limit magazine capacity to 10 rounds. When someone here rants about "machine guns in the streets," the NRA crowd says "That's just not true!," and they're right.
 
Bob001 said:
No, they are different in fact and in the laws, and it only weakens gun control advocates to misstate the facts. A semi-auto fires once each time the trigger is pulled; a machine gun fires continuously from the time the trigger is pulled until it is released or the magazine is empty. Some states limit magazine capacity to 10 rounds. When someone here rants about "machine guns in the streets," the NRA crowd says "That's just not true!," and they're right.
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And still I have yet to hear why your average American needs to own either a semi auto or auto.

Or why they can't be controlled even if a pistol for self defence isn't

With the small exception of collectors
 
MikeG said:
That's only a splitting-hairs difference, particularly as teenagers theoretically could buy a machine gun. This is a weapon that spits out bullets at a fearsome rate. Call it semi-automatic if that makes you feel better about it. (Collective you, not personal you).
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Mike, Mike don't you know unless you get down to the manufacturer, model, series and production run of a particular gun you can't say anything meaningful about gun control.

There is simply no way you can write legislation that would control gun ownership as a Mk 3 version 12 series 8a made by Bob Smith on Friday 13th June 2012 can be converted to a non fully automatic bump loading grenade launcher by anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of steel casting, gun powder production and a working foundry?
 
Cain said:
The Columbine kids made pipe bombs. How many people did those bombs kill?

The whole "they'll just make bombs" thing is so ****** retarded. No, it's really not THAT easy to go and build a bomb. "I'm drunk and angry, I'll manufacture an explosive device!" The Unabomber was a genius and he killed seven(?) people. The Boston bombers killed two people?

Why don't we allow out of work engineers to sell bombs? People can (and will) make them anyway. If you outlaw bombs, only outlaws will have bombs.

Here's the thing about criminals: Generally speaking, they're stupid. Stupid and impulsive. The more hoops you make them jump through, the more likely you are to trip them up.
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Nommed
 
Darat said:
Mike, Mike don't you know unless you get down to the manufacturer, model, series and production run of a particular gun you can't say anything meaningful about gun control.

There is simply no way you can write legislation that would control gun ownership as a Mk 3 version 12 series 8a made by Bob Smith on Friday 13th June 2012 can be converted to a non fully automatic bump loading grenade launcher by anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of steel casting, gun powder production and a working foundry?
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:D
 
Bob001 said:
No, they are different in fact and in the laws, and it only weakens gun control advocates to misstate the facts. A semi-auto fires once each time the trigger is pulled; a machine gun fires continuously from the time the trigger is pulled until it is released or the magazine is empty. Some states limit magazine capacity to 10 rounds. When someone here rants about "machine guns in the streets," the NRA crowd says "That's just not true!," and they're right.
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A village has been built in the deepest gully of a floodplain.

At regular intervals, flash floods wipe away houses, killing all inside. Less dramatic—but more lethal—is the steady toll as individual villagers slip and drown in the marshes around them.

After especially deadly events, the villagers solemnly discuss what they might do to protect themselves. Perhaps they might raise their homes on stilts? But a powerful faction among the villagers is always at hand to explain why these ideas won’t work. “No law can keep our village safe! The answer is that our people must learn to be better swimmers - and oh by the way, you said ‘stilts’ when the proper term is ‘piles,’ so why should anybody listen to you?”

So the argument rages, without result, year after year, decade after decade, fatalities mounting all the while. Nearby villages, built in the hills, marvel that the gully-dwellers persist in their seemingly reckless way of life. But the gully-dwellers counter that they are following the wishes of their Founders, whose decisions two centuries ago must always be upheld by their descendants.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politic...n-sense-tactics-the-debate-is-missing/542229/
 
CNN: Florida gunman Nikolas Cruz is willing to plead guilty to avoid the death penalty and spare the community from reliving the massacre in a trial, his public defender said.
 
philkensebben said:
How nice of him.
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Vixen said:
Cheeky bastard.
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You can bet that it came as a recommendation from his attorneys. He had already confessed and besides that there is no question that he did kill those people. His attorneys have already announced that there is no doubt that he killed them. The notion of "State must prove that he did it" is not part of this equation at all.

He may be too ignorant and naive to know that any sort of deal can be had. It's his lawyers who inform him of the options and can make recommendations.
 
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