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Trans Women are not Women

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BobTheCoward said:
The stroke is swimmers choice.

Anyone is free to compete in the weightlifting event.

Why stupid?
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Swimming would be reduced to freestyle only, since it is the fastest stroke.

Weightlifting would be reduced to heavyweight men only.

I get that not everyone is into sports, but you might as well go all the way and say you wished they were banned.
 
caveman1917 said:
The thing you're really failing to consider is that, at least in the UK, 95% of transwomen have not undergone any kind of medical therapy and 80% are expected to never do so.

We should be accurate about the concepts of sex and gender. Sex is the biological characteristic resulting from a certain pathway having been taken in the development of the fetus, consisting of primary and secondary sex characteristics. Gender is a social construct consisting of a behavioural stereotype (men are violent, women are submissive, men are logical, women are emotional, etc etc) and a social force which acts so as to force people into those stereotypes. Gender is hence always relative to a certain society, whereas sex is biological.

What is relevant for sports is secondary sex characteristics (lung capacity, muscle mass, etc) so what's relevant here is trans-sexualism and not trans-genderism. I don't see why there should be an expectation why someone with measurable sex-based advantages should be allowed into competitive sports of the other sex, whilst having no intention to do something about that advantage, for no other reason than that it "feels like the right thing" to that individual.

Trans-genderism is a category error anyway, confusing gender (a social construct) with personality (an individual construct).
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Citation needed.
 
Marcus said:
Swimming would be reduced to freestyle only, since it is the fastest stroke.

Weightlifting would be reduced to heavyweight men only.

I get that not everyone is into sports, but you might as well go all the way and say you wished they were banned.
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I love sports. I love them so much I have entered a modernist, abstract, conceptual art phase of sports appreciation. The concept and ideas of the sport take precedence over traditional aesthetic, technical, and material concerns.
 
Damien Evans said:
Citation needed.
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ref

These figures indicate that about 1% of the UK population, some 650,000 people, are likely to be gender incongruent to some degree. So far, only about 30,000 have sought medical help for gender dysphoria. Dutch research indicates that around a fifth of the 650,000 will do so, amounting to a further 100,000 people.
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It doesn't further specify which particular Dutch research though.
 
rustypouch said:
It wouldn't surprise me if certain countries, particularly Russia and China, forced some athletes to do this. Something similar to East Germany in the 70s and 80s.
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There were women doped to the degree that they changed genders and lived as men.
 
caveman1917 said:
The thing you're really failing to consider is that, at least in the UK, 95% of transwomen have not undergone any kind of medical therapy and 80% are expected to never do so.

We should be accurate about the concepts of sex and gender. Sex is the biological characteristic resulting from a certain pathway having been taken in the development of the fetus, consisting of primary and secondary sex characteristics. Gender is a social construct consisting of a behavioural stereotype (men are violent, women are submissive, men are logical, women are emotional, etc etc) and a social force which acts so as to force people into those stereotypes. Gender is hence always relative to a certain society, whereas sex is biological.

What is relevant for sports is secondary sex characteristics (lung capacity, muscle mass, etc) so what's relevant here is trans-sexualism and not trans-genderism. I don't see why there should be an expectation why someone with measurable sex-based advantages should be allowed into competitive sports of the other sex, whilst having no intention to do something about that advantage, for no other reason than that it "feels like the right thing" to that individual.

Trans-genderism is a category error anyway, confusing gender (a social construct) with personality (an individual construct).
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Cool Story, brah ...
 
BobTheCoward said:
The stroke is swimmers choice.

Anyone is free to compete in the weightlifting event.

Why stupid?
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If you want to be consistent, allow boats or running around the pool. Jumping in the water and not using machines are choices.
 
tyr_13 said:
In each case they generally don't compete because the effects of human manipulation of hormones (corrective or not) often results in vast performance differences that make the competition unfair or unsafe.
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But this isn't true. The case we're discussing here is biological males who start with an athletic advantage over biological females, before any hormone manipulation enters the picture. That makes it distinct from the other cases you discuss.

That doesn't mean that any of those groups aren't women. This goes either way on the causation sequence; it's neither true that they can't compete because they'r not women nor that they aren't women because they can't compete.

Now one might say, 'that's just one layer more of abstraction, the same as saying it's not the fall the kills you but the sudden stop at the end', but it isn't. The reason for the hormone/etc differences don't come from them not being 'women', but from them being 'transwomen' which is a subset of 'women'.

This gets tricky at the edges, but sports are pretty damn arbitrary in many regards anyway. Each small change in rules can change just what you're measuring. What about ciswomen who just have a lot of the needed hormones? Why is the tricky science of nutrition not also restricted/segregated the way sex and doping are? What is the goal of sports to begin with?
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You're conflating several different sources of athletic advantage. A man who competes against women doesn't become a woman by virtue of the competition. This has no bearing on the gender--biological, psychological, or otherwise--of competitors who seek competitive advantage through other means.

I think you're really stretching here, to prove an unnecessary (and mistaken) point.
 
I'd be interested to know what more cisgendered women feel on the subject: does it matter if you're in a changing room and some chick whips out a penis?

Is it fair that transwomen are taking places in politics and other equal-opportunity areas where ratios are determined by gender? Is it reasonable that having been discriminated against for aeons and finally reaching some kind of parity that a class of women who used to be men muscle in on it?

Is it fair to send transwomen to women's jails? They certainly cannot be sent to men's jails, so do we need to actually designate a third gender, as some societies have done for centuries?

Women's refuges - is it reasonable that women in a place where anything male is anathema & potentially panic-inducing, that the women there are confronted by what is in many cases, a perfectly male body?

I don't know the answers, but I think they're some of the more important questions. I'd tend to sway behind the "third gender" option if I had to make a choice.
 
The Atheist said:
I'd be interested to know what more cisgendered women feel on the subject: does it matter if you're in a changing room and some chick whips out a penis?

Is it fair that transwomen are taking places in politics and other equal-opportunity areas where ratios are determined by gender? Is it reasonable that having been discriminated against for aeons and finally reaching some kind of parity that a class of women who used to be men muscle in on it?

Is it fair to send transwomen to women's jails? They certainly cannot be sent to men's jails, so do we need to actually designate a third gender, as some societies have done for centuries?

Women's refuges - is it reasonable that women in a place where anything male is anathema & potentially panic-inducing, that the women there are confronted by what is in many cases, a perfectly male body?

I don't know the answers, but I think they're some of the more important questions. I'd tend to sway behind the "third gender" option if I had to make a choice.
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Quoted so you can't take it away ...
 
cullennz said:
If your talking transgender and female weightlifting in NZ . Yep
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Why? She is following the international rules and after the required stand down time on female hormones, she has had to do the hard work to get back to where she is, and on top of all that, while yes she won the Australasia section, she didn't win the world's in either event she competed in.
 
The Atheist said:
I'd be interested to know what more cisgendered women feel on the subject: does it matter if you're in a changing room and some chick whips out a penis?
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That is kind of a cruel notion that you don't like another woman's body because it is different.
 
Oystein said:
In sports, the main reason why men and women compete separately is that men, due to differences in hormonal mix and development, quite simply grow stronger muscles, and on average also grow taller, than women. It's a matter of biological, physiological sporting fairness.

So I can see, and actually support, that transgender folks who are treated as women socially are still treated as men athletically, if they (still) have the male mix of testosterone, size, muscles etc.

Or else, next thing we have a boxer claiming to be a feather weight trapped in a heavy weight body!
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Perhaps, then -- extrapolating on this thought -- it might make sense to do away with segregation by sex altogether, and go for either no segregation at all, or else settle for segregation only by height and/or weight (depending on the relevance of such segregation for the specific sport), and irrespective of sex?

That would, after all, be the logical culmination of the drive for equality of the sexes.
 
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Roboramma said:
So, what were you trying to achieve by doing away with, for instance, different strokes in swimming?
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I said what earlier

a modernist, abstract, conceptual art phase of sports appreciation. The concept and ideas of the sport take precedence over traditional aesthetic, technical, and material concerns.
 
B
Chanakya said:
Perhaps, then -- extrapolating on this thought -- it might make sense to do away with segregation by sex altogether, and go for either no segregation at all, or else settle for segregation only by height and/or weight (depending on the relevance of such segregation for the specific sport), and irrespective of sex?

That would, after all, be the logical culmination of the drive for equality of the sexes.
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I think weight classes are equally silly.
 
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