Michael Shermer vs. "alternative history" Hancock and Crandall

[Roboramma]

They don't exist. You are making stuff up.

If they exist, which is your claim- THEN PROVIDE THEM.

I think he's asking you to provide the ones who you think were involved, whenever it was you think this happened.

 

[Craig B]

OBJECTION: Speculation.

"Private sector..."??? Produce the names of the project designer, lead engineer, or ANY of the workers, or admit this is pure speculative fiction with ZERO evidence.

The section I have marked is a lie dishonestly told by you. If we give you that information you deride it and ask for more neverendingly. That is one of your dishonest tactics. Because I have given you the name of one of the workers

You were looking for names of people involved in the project. My source contains a reference to

The enthusiastic, active participation of the agronomist, Francisco Araya, the CORFO officer in charge of field operations, deserves metion here.​

Are this guy and his colleagues frauds, or is Snr Araya so incompetent an agronomist that he can't tell the difference between new trees and a 12,000 year old forest?.

1. STOP using the date 12,000 with this site, as I have not dated any of these forests.

2. Francisco Araya was the agronomist & officer in charge of field operations....??? I asked who was the project's director, designer, and lead engineer... Did you not find it odd that these things were inaccessible? Where's the test results to justify the expenditure? Where are the blueprints and layouts of other potential sites? Who decided this site- one person, a board, the Chilean Government? What Act or Law brought about its construction, and what was the projected cost? In America, these things would be easy to find...the third world, South American version has less demanding transparency standards, sadly.

 

[King of the Americas]

27 November 2017: An ignorant rant about the authors of a report on post 1963 tree planting which is what makes a delusion of pre-Columbian planting and a lie of no funding.
24 November 2017: A fantasy and a lie about evidence of Chilean government funding
CORFO is a Chilean governmental organization as you already know.
One of its programs was "National Programme for Livestock Development".
Mario A. Habit was employed by the Chilean government:

He was the Agronomist...NOT the project's designer, lead engineer, or one of the workers who did the plowing and planting.

So, how much did the project cost? Where did the buy the seeds or saplings?

 

[Porpoise of Life]

Stop pettifogging! You are conflating issues.

'The' or 'a' flood, coastal and other low-lying garden grid HAVE been consumed by ocean level rises. WHEN this happened, exactly or how quickly is indeed a point of contention.

---

Pre-Columbian Agriculture, ON THIS SCALE, was or is unknown but the paper I provided does include the dating of the occupation of these terra formations.

They were not 'fully' occupied at the time of Columbus' arrival.

Right...because there isn't enough ice, if melted, to cover all of the land...but...coastal cities, and an entire civilization was halted by a sudden sea level rise...any maybe some other post-asteroid mayhem...

The tale is 'everywhere' ...even in remote cultures, seemingly disconnected to exposures of Noah or Gilgamesh. I hold that these myths are based on a truth, but the story has lost the true nature of the details.

I have posted countless images of coastal flood ruins...some have circular walls (like Atlantis), and some have the grid gardens I mentioned. They are 'evidence of a global flood.'

Look, I can't force you to address facts, nor correlate data in the manner I have to arrive at my conclusions. All that I can do is provide you access to information.

Your misunderstanding(s) in regards to the evidence presented is your doing, not mine.

In one breath you accuse me of saying you meant THE Flood where you didn't, and in the next breath you claim that THE flood did happen.
And me calling you out is pettifogging, but you accusing a poster of Flat Earterism because he used a definite article instead of an indefinite one is somehow perfectly relevant?

I know you're just trying to distract us again, because you won't provide evidence for your outlandish claims, so let me repeat:

Any evidence yet?
And I won't even hold you to the ridiculous standard you hold others to... I don't need the names and titles of everyone involved... anything that rises above the level of 'there are currently grid patterns all over the world, so these must have been made by a global culture that left for space without any archeological trace' will be fine.

 

[King of the Americas]

In one breath you accuse me of saying you meant THE Flood where you didn't, and in the next breath you claim that THE flood did happen.
And me calling you out is pettifogging, but you accusing a poster of Flat Earterism because he used a definite article instead of an indefinite one is somehow perfectly relevant?

I know you're just trying to distract us again, because you won't provide evidence for your outlandish claims, so let me repeat:

Any evidence yet?
And I won't even hold you to the ridiculous standard you hold others to... I don't need the names and titles of everyone involved... anything that rises above the level of 'there are currently grid patterns all over the world, so these must have been made by a global culture that left for space without any archeological trace' will be fine.

Any evidence yet???

My thesis is 'Should similarly sized and shaped grid gardens, located around the world, be interpreted as a singular global advanced agricultural civilization?'

My evidence has been posted relentlessly. There are grid gardens all around the world, in fact if you name your hometown, I'll find one near you, that you can investigate for yourself.

The paper I posted dates these sites re-occupation to well before Columbus.

What are you arguing exactly?

 

[John Jones]

Any evidence yet???

Have you?

My thesis is 'Should similarly sized and shaped grid gardens, located around the world, be interpreted as a singular global advanced agricultural civilization?'

Any evidence yet?

My evidence has been posted relentlessly. There are grid gardens all around the world, in fact if you name your hometown, I'll find one near you, that you can investigate for yourself.

That's evidence of what? That people garden? You have a remarkable grasp of the freaking obvious.

The paper I posted dates these sites re-occupation to well before Columbus.

It is an established and well-known fact that people had gardens before Columnbus. I can't believe you didn't seem to know this until you discovered Google Earth.

What are you arguing exactly?

Exactly. Did you have some other, less obvious observations?

 

[Craig B]

He was the Agronomist...NOT the project's designer, lead engineer, or one of the workers who did the plowing and planting.

An agronomist is one of the workers, so you smuggle in another qualification. It needs to be a ploughman or a planter, not an agronomist. If I give you these, you'll ask for the name of the truck driver or the cook. And on it goes unendingly. But that's not all.

So, how much did the project cost? Where did the buy the seeds or saplings?

Seeds bought in a garden centre perhaps. On and on and on ... who are you kidding? The trees are there.

 

[Porpoise of Life]

Any evidence yet???

My thesis is 'Should similarly sized and shaped grid gardens, located around the world, be interpreted as a singular global advanced agricultural civilization?'

My evidence has been posted relentlessly. There are grid gardens all around the world, in fact if you name your hometown, I'll find one near you, that you can investigate for yourself.

The paper I posted dates these sites re-occupation to well before Columbus.

What are you arguing exactly?

I've told you before, but you've opted to obfuscate and distract instead of doing any actual work. But I'll repeat myself:

Those grids you see are all a lot less old than your mythical prehistoric global civilisation must have been.
Case in point: the Chilean reforestation project from the 60's you keep denying.

If you say they aren't, provide the evidence. You can't, and you know it, that's why you keep trying to distract us.
Hell, you haven't even explained why you think that the existence of straight lines in landscapes is best explained by an advanced prehistoric global civilisation.

When you're bored with being asked for evidence for your latest claim regarding the existence of grids, you'll move on to another silly point such as hands looking like hands all over the world, moai supposedly quarried from the sea bed, the existence of pyramids, the existence of ruins near coastlines, the existence of semicircular inscriptions, and so on.
And like with all those examples, when pressed for evidence, you'll demand people prove you wrong and when they don't fall for that, move on to the next lie.

So again: start by providing evidence that some of the patterns you've discovered are old enough to fit your timeline. Then we can take it from there.

 

[King of the Americas]

Have you?



Any evidence yet?




That's evidence of what? That people garden? You have a remarkable grasp of the freaking obvious.



It is an established and well-known fact that people had gardens before Columnbus. I can't believe you didn't seem to know this until you discovered Google Earth.




Exactly. Did you have some other, less obvious observations?

Yes.

Yes, multiple pictures.

The grid gardens are thousands of yards wide...the artificial forests posted go on for over 10 miles. These project dwarf our biggest best efforts. In fact our occupation OF these ancient gardens is only partial...we can not today manage their entire acreage. I've argued that these grid gardens represent advanced agriculture.

So, you have no counter argument?

 

[Andy_Ross]

Any chance you can visit and attempt to date those ruin sites along the English coast I showed you last?

No, they were in Scotland weren't they?

 

[Craig B]

Yes.

Yes, multiple pictures.

The grid gardens are thousands of yards wide...the artificial forests posted go on for over 10 miles. These project dwarf our biggest best efforts. In fact our occupation OF these ancient gardens is only partial...we can not today manage their entire acreage. I've argued that these grid gardens represent advanced agriculture.

So, you have no counter argument?

Artificial forests ten miles wide are within the capacity of modern technology to manage.

Kielder Forest^WP is a large forestry plantation in Northumberland, England, surrounding Kielder village and the Kielder Water reservoir. It is the largest man-made woodland in England with three-quarters of its 250 square miles (650 km2) covered by forest.​

Do you have any traces of advanced technology, like bits of discarded electric ploughs, to support your claim? I bet you don't. And we've been through all this before with Tiwanaku, haven't we?

 

[Craig B]

No, they were in Scotland weren't they?

Tell me where they are. Better still, post me a photo; and I'll see if anything is known about them.

 

[John Jones]

Yes.

Yes, multiple pictures.

The grid gardens are thousands of yards wide...the artificial forests posted go on for over 10 miles. These project dwarf our biggest best efforts. In fact our occupation OF these ancient gardens is only partial...we can not today manage their entire acreage. I've argued that these grid gardens represent advanced agriculture.

So, you have no counter argument?

Counter to what? You have such a history of pulling conclusions out of your arse, I think it's time you supported them. What evidence do you have that the distances you claimed are accurate or remarkable?

 

[Andy_Ross]

They don't exist. You are making stuff up.

If they exist, which is your claim- THEN PROVIDE THEM.

Shifting the burden of proof.

You are making the claim, it's up to you to provide the evidence to support it.
That the trees were planted from the 60s in a reforestation project is the accepted historic record.

You are making an extraordinary claim, give us some extraordinary evidence

 

[Andy_Ross]

Ten miles? there are recent replanted forests and plantations that cover hundreds of miles, the biggest one in europe is an hours drive from me, there are very big forests even closer.

 

[Crawtator]

OMG....I found more evidence supporting KotA's hypothesis! I can't believe that he was right, but this is INCONTROVERTIBLE!

http://www.libertymillsfarm.com/2010-maze/

 

[Porpoise of Life]

Ah, this maze must have been created by a globally connected technologically advanced culture!

Not an ancient one though...

 

[Andy_Ross]

OMG....I found more evidence supporting KotA's hypothesis! I can't believe that he was right, but this is INCONTROVERTIBLE!

http://www.libertymillsfarm.com/2010-maze/

My God! your right, I found one in Yorkshire

 

[Reality Check]

So there was never a land bridge between North America and Asia???

28 November 2017: A fantasy that the land bridge between North America and Asia was caused by a religious myth of the flood.
Sea levels rising and falling (plural) are not called the (singular) flood. They are called sea level rises and falls !

 

[King of the Americas]

So...

I found an entire intact village, complete with grid gardens, and buildings that still have roofs...empty...

It's a whole city...and I see no signs of recent human activity...it is tucked away up in the Himalayas, and the nearest road or population center is 30 miles away.

There are no roads or paths leading to it from the highway...