Senator Al Franken Kissed and Groped Me Without My Consent, And There’s Nothing Funny

Skeptic Ginger said:
Continuing to equate the accusations against Franken, regardless of what one thinks about them, with the rest of the current batch of serial sexual assaulters is as absurd as the elevatorgate crowd that suggested men never get on an elevator if a woman alone occupies said elevator lest you frighten her.

Sorry but that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
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I have stated plenty of times that I am making no such equation. But now you are making a false equivalence by bringing up elevatorgate.
 
Darat said:
She agreed to a kiss, when she wasn't happy with how the kiss was she made sure he knew in no uncertain terms never to do that again and he stopped.



There isn't any evidence he did grab her breast.
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As has been suggested, kissing with tongues is not considered part of stage kissing. So what she agreed to did not involve agreeing to the way she *alleged* he kissed her. That’s the problem.

As for grabbing her boobs, I did say *if* and this what she has alleged. There’s no point snipping the sentence and informing me there is *no* evidence. I get your point that the photograph is insufficient to completely determine how much touch there was but it is suggestive evidence and it is still an allegation of hers, from what I understand, and I don’t think he has denied grabbing her boob.
 
The photo of Franken 'groping' on the plane *appears* to have his fingertips touching the flak jacket. If the camera used to take the photo is known, where the distance between the lens optical axis and flash are known, and especially if the focal length of the lens is known, one can easily determine by the shadow separation from the fingers if there was indeed contact or not.

My impression has his fingers stopped short of touching. If there was contact, at the very fingertips we should see practically no shadow due to the contact resulting in no parallax-like effect. If the camera were to be a point 'n shoot type where the separation between lens and flash is typically small (as opposed to an SLR-type with somewhat tall attached flash), such shadow separation as we see here is very strongly supportive of some physical separation between fingertips and jacket.

I raise this to point out that based on this photo evidence, there may have been nothing more than pretend groping going on. If Franken did hold short of touching, this is to me at least a little exculpatory.

But if he recalls and admits to having made contact at some point (even if the photo turns out to prove no contact at that moment), then that trumps everything.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
But you've dismissed Franken who said he didn't remember it that way. I'm not any more wrong than you are.
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No, have not dismissed what Franken said. I said both are credible, it's a classic he said, she said. Franken agrees by the way that the woman deserves to be believed.

Skeptic Ginger said:
I can't believe you are saying X happened because Tweeden experienced it while ignoring the fact Franken remembered experiencing it differently. :boggled:
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Perceptions are differen't, aren't they?

Skeptic Ginger said:
She didn't like the guy, it happens. You're saying the only possibility is she was grossed out by the tongue as if nothing else could have grossed her out about touring with Franken.
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No, I took great care NOT to say that she was grossed out, specifically, "by the tongue". Please re-read! I said she was probably put off by something, and whatever it was, she didn't want it - and that's all it takes.

Skeptic Ginger said:
She was pissed about the picture. You don't think some people exaggerate the offenses against them in their memory? You can't admit the grope joke embarrassed you so suddenly Franken becomes grosser than that. People do that all the time.

The photo demonstrates clearly Franken was joking along with the normal schtick on a USO tour. There are probably similar jokes on the SNL set.
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I agree the incidents are both relatively (to, e.g. what Moore did, Trump bragged about, certainly Weinstein, Cosby et al.) minor and may be inflated, but they are not nothing, and it's inappropriate and unfair to bash the victim.
 
A year ago I would have more or less shrugged at the accusations against Franken. They are nowhere near as serious as those against Moore, and it irks me that the right is using it as a diversion. That said, the Democrats need to own this issue. There can be no tolerance for "boys will be boys". Defending Franken on these credible accusations cedes the moral high ground.

Franken may well be a good law maker and a fighter for Democratic causes. That's not enough today. This is more than a political thing. This is a brand new world were the momentum of women's voices is strong. Democrats need to be on the right side of history on this one. The GOP certainly won't be.
 
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Skeptic Ginger said:
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Nothing Franken has been accused of comes anywhere near that level.
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Certainly true, but is that good enough reason to dismiss the victims? You don't do photos like that, you make sure before a skit kiss what your partner is ok with (especially a non-actor), you don't grab butts - if you respect women.

Respecting women and fighting for their rights is very much on Franken's political agenda. It's fair and necessary to hold him by his own standards.
 
Oystein said:
And?
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And this points to the fact that she is happy with a certain amount of invasion of personal space and physical contact when she is the perpetrator. It shows that she is quite happy to sexually assault (by her own metric) non consenting individuals without compunction.

It shows her hypocrisy in a blinding light and makes one wonder why she might consider that her behaviour is OK, yet anybody acting in a similar way towards her is committing a heinous act. Simple double standards at play.

She is exaggerating the outcome of the alleged grope and assault for reasons best known to her.

She belittles the act of sexual assault with this nonsense.

Here's a quote, with a little editing, from somebody who is very involved in this thread which should be read in conjunction with the foregoing. I think they are very wise words.

It's fair and necessary to hold him her by his her own standards
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bluesjnr said:
And this points to the fact that she is happy with a certain amount of invasion of personal space and physical contact when she is the perpetrator. It shows that she is quite happy to sexually assault (by her own metric) non consenting individuals without compunction.

It shows her hypocrisy in a blinding light and makes one wonder why she might consider that her behaviour is OK, yet anybody acting in a similar way towards her is committing a heinous act. Simple double standards at play.

She is exaggerating the outcome of the alleged grope and assault for reasons best known to her.

She belittles the act of sexual assault with this nonsense.

Here's a quote, with a little editing, from somebody who is very involved in this thread which should be read in conjunction with the foregoing. I think they are very wise words.
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And what, exactly, compels me to judge Franken's action by your projection of Tweeden's standards rather than by Franken's own, society's or indeed my own standards?

I do not buy though that any person who gets up on a USO stage and puts his arms around her sexily clad body minds her physical proximity. My base assumption here is they still recall it as a highlight of their military careers.
 
Oystein said:
And what, exactly, compels me to judge Franken's action by your projection of Tweeden's standards rather than by Franken's own, society's or indeed my own standards?
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The baseline. Your judgement should be informed by the baseline for complaint which, in turn, should be informed by the prior actions of the players involved. Yeah it's a tu quoque and it's a sliding scale but, hey, life isn't simply black and white.

I do not buy though that any person who gets up on a USO stage and puts his arms around her sexily clad body minds her physical proximity. My base assumption here is they still recall it as a highlight of their military careers.
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Stop objectifying this woman, that's sexist.
 
bluesjnr said:
The baseline. Your judgement should be informed by the baseline for complaint which, in turn, should be informed by the prior actions of the players involved. Yeah it's a tu quoque and it's a sliding scale but, hey, life isn't simply black and white..
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I do have my baseline. It is actually pretty close to Franken's, and I'll happily stick with. To lower the bar because of the victim's perceived lower standard comes darned close to slut shaming.

bluesjnr said:
Stop objectifying this woman, that's sexist.
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Don't be silly. She was a professional entertainer, and the men who went there knew what entertainment awaited them. We may safely assume they were extremely ok with the gist of it. Have any come foward and accused Tweeden of inappropriateness? No? See.
 
uke2se said:
A year ago I would have more or less shrugged at the accusations against Franken. They are nowhere near as serious as those against Moore, and it irks me that the right is using it as a diversion. That said, the Democrats need to own this issue. There can be no tolerance for "boys will be boys". Defending Franken on these credible accusations cedes the moral high ground.

Franken may well be a good law maker and a fighter for Democratic causes. That's not enough today. This is more than a political thing. This is a brand new world were the momentum of women's voices is strong. Democrats need to be on the right side of history on this one. The GOP certainly won't be.
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I agree.

And Tweeden says she accepts his apology and doesn't want to see him removed from office.

How much should that count for?
 
bluesjnr said:
The baseline. Your judgement should be informed by the baseline for complaint which, in turn, should be informed by the prior actions of the players involved. Yeah it's a tu quoque and it's a sliding scale but, hey, life isn't simply black and white.
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This doesn’t make any sense. Let’s say there are worse videos out there of Tweeden, maybe grabbing men by the meat and two veg while they were waiting for a bus or in any other situation where they wouldn’t expect it. How would it exonerate Franken?
 
quadraginta said:
I agree.

And Tweeden says she accepts his apology and doesn't want to see him removed from office.

How much should that count for?
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Quite a lot. However, there's now a second accusor. That points to a habitual behavior.

It's a bit gun-shy to call for Franken's resignation at this point, but I'm gun-shy when it comes to these issues.
 
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Oystein said:
I do have my baseline. It is actually pretty close to Franken's, and I'll happily stick with. To lower the bar because of the victim's perceived lower standard comes darned close to slut shaming.
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As long as we actively avoid slut shaming, we can still use the baselines of each to measure the impact of the event upon each of them. I think Tweeden is exaggerating the impact upon her life for reasons best known to her, based on her prior behaviour in similar situations and the fact that she has sexually assaulted (by her own metric) unconsenting adults in the past.

Don't be silly. She was a professional entertainer, and the men who went there knew what entertainment awaited them. We may safely assume they were extremely ok with the gist of it. Have any come foward and accused Tweeden of inappropriateness? No? See.
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Really, you're making that assertion in todays snowflake world?

Maybe some felt peer pressure to attend and went up on to the stage under the same pressure? Maybe she grabbed their ass or wrapped her legs around them (we know she has form for it) and they felt uncomfortable? How do you know none have complained? Maybe their complaints have been brushed aside? Maybe they are afraid to complain because of folks like you, you know the "it's the highlight of their time in service, hot chick etc" line you're laying out.

You almost sound like you're saying that if they did feel uncomfortable or even assaulted, they deserved it.

Look, I know the above is a bit of a stretch but your are showing a massive double standard here.
 
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