Senator Al Franken Kissed and Groped Me Without My Consent, And There’s Nothing Funny

[logger]

Wrong thread.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Because the only evidence about how a person perceives something that you will ever get is their own statement about it.

But you've dismissed Franken who said he didn't remember it that way. I'm not any more wrong than you are. I can't believe you are saying X happened because Tweeden experienced it while ignoring the fact Franken remembered experiencing it differently.

... On the other hand: There must have been a reason why that incident got stuck in her head, and I'd argue the null hypothesis is that she had reason, in her frame of references, to consider it inapropriate; which, IMO again, ipso facto makes it inappropriate. Even if she felt that way because she didn't like Franken: That would be a good enough reason not to want to be kissed, or be kissed whichever way he kissed her.

She didn't like the guy, it happens. You're saying the only possibility is she was grossed out by the tongue as if nothing else could have grossed her out about touring with Franken.

She was pissed about the picture. You don't think some people exaggerate the offenses against them in their memory? You can't admit the grope joke embarrassed you so suddenly Franken becomes grosser than that. People do that all the time.

The photo demonstrates clearly Franken was joking along with the normal schtick on a USO tour. There are probably similar jokes on the SNL set.

 

[Elagabalus]

Aisles, Weinstein, Cosby and O'Reilly have all paid off multiple accusers. CK and Trump has admitted to it. Trump on the Access Hollywood bus and CK issued a statement that all the accusations were true. Ratner has multiple accusers and his statements dont ring true to me...but maybe he didn't.

I would say that they all share a certain creepiness/ I can see it in their personas (and I would even include Charlie Rose in that list). Whereas, Al Franken does not.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Ahem.
What happens on stage for the benefit of entertainment should not be confused with what happens off stage during rehearsals ...

What, rehearsals aren't included as part of the acting?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/20/politics/al-franken-inappropriate-touch-2010/index.html

Woman says Franken inappropriately touched her in 2010

Riight, for a couple seconds during a photo op. Franken denies this one and apologizes if she thinks he touched her ass or whatever.


Boy those accusations are really chalking up here.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Doesn't matter.

It's a 55 year old man pretending to grope the boobs of a sleeping woman to humiliate her via a photograph of the act.

It is sexual harassment of the high school variety.

Right, so don't confuse it with sexual harassment of the Moore, Weinstein, O'Reilly, Ailes, and now Rose variety.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Yep. Instantly plausible. This might seem minor, but together with the previous allegation, this is enough in my view. Franken should resign.

Resign, hell, string him up.

Franken's response:

“I take thousands of photos at the state fair surrounded by hundreds of people, and I certainly don’t remember taking this picture. I feel badly that Ms. Menz came away from our interaction feeling disrespected,” Franken said in a statement to CNN.

Naturally that is being reported as Franken doesn't deny it.

 

[The Big Dog]

But you've dismissed Franken who said he didn't remember it that way. I'm not any more wrong than you are. I can't believe you are saying X happened because Tweeden experienced it while ignoring the fact Franken remembered experiencing it differently.
.

That was in his first non apology “apology” that he walked back when he realized how stupid it was.

Plus, he never said “how he remembered it” so we are fully justified in throwing that ******** right in the dumpster with the rest of his career.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

IIRC, she's a sports commentator and a model. Not a comedian. Not that I believe that has anything to do with anything.

She jokes around sexually on stage on her USO tours, there are many clips of her groping and kissing men on stage that appear as if the men were surprised.

 

[acbytesla]

I would say that they all share a certain creepiness/ I can see it in their personas (and I would even include Charlie Rose in that list). Whereas, Al Franken does not.

I'd say you are right about Franken but I fully admit I would think that way about Rose too. We must admit we don't really know these people. Franken seems the least likely in my mind. But he is also the most problematic because comedians almost naturally will cross over the line to get a laugh. And what was funny in their mind, in reality isn't.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Three reasons.

1. She is basically a stranger.
2. Her husband was taking the picture and Franken isn't exactly a big guy. In fact hes quite small. That's a good way to get beat up.

3. Some people lie for attention. My best friends first wife lied all the time for attention. It makes a better story to tell her friends that Al groped her.

It's another accusation that is not like the others: unwanted masturbating in front of women, dropping the towel when the aide brings the papers by, getting a 14 yr old out of her clothes at your house when you are in your 30s, ...

 

[The Big Dog]

Oh right, it is THAT time of the day.

Let the slut shaming and victim blaming commence.

Shelter in place.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

If your decision about whether to "buy" assault allegations is informed by your political bias, you're doing it wrong.

I don't have a political opinion of Weinstein or Rose. They both have some pretty credible damning accusations made against them.

Nothing Franken has been accused of comes anywhere near that level.

 

[acbytesla]

It's another accusation that is not like the others: unwanted masturbating in front of women, dropping the towel when the aide brings the papers by, getting a 14 yr old out of her clothes at your house when you are in your 30s, ...

These all might have sexual aspects to them, but they are not anywhere near the same thing.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Yep that appears to be a impartial and balanced slut shaming site, totes not in the business of spinning for progs

That really doesn't fall in the slut-shaming category which requires one then say "she deserved it".

Saying 'Tweeden is complaining about the same thing she appears to do to men on stage makes it harder to evaluate her claims', is not the same thing.

For example, it puts the kissing skit in another light. There is still the issue of her tongue accusation Franken doesn't recall, but the skit was pretty much on par for the USO stage.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

What evidence do you have on Cosby, Weinstein, Trump, Ratner, CK, O'Reilly, Ailes? Photos? Videos? Or people accusing them? But say you should not believe people saying stuff, because some people like to lie!

Al Franken, in his longer, second statement to Tweeden stressed the importance that women not only deserve a right to speak out, but also to be believed.

The new case has some extra ecidence: Facebook comments made days after the event, in which she already sais that Franken touched her in a gross way.

You don't seem to recognize the difference in the bigger picture here. Try again.

 

[angrysoba]

Figure of speech or not, it is hyperbole, as is her description of his "slimy lips". You don't have to like the person acting with you on the stage, but it was a stage, it was a show and acting in the skit was part of the show. Anything beyond that may be an issue but it's clear that fake kissing and joke groping (in this case Tweeden gropes the men on stage, see all the clips) is the job. There is a point where Franken either does or does not cross the line, but don't try to demonize the side of the line that is called acting.

Wow! I am not trying to "demonize" acting. That is a ridiculous accusation.

Again, you seem to have trouble understanding or at least fairly representing the claims made by Tweeden.

She has not claimed a problem with the joke as written and as performed. She has claimed he badgered her into a rehearsal which involved him trying to kiss her with tongues. As you yourself have said, kissing with tongues is not what actors do, so if her claim is correct (and I am aware that this is hypothetical so you get no points for pointing it out) then it would constitute sexual harassment.

It's dishonest to call that grope joke "breast grabbing". If you don't know the difference, you have a problem.

It may have been a joke (in Franken's mind anyway), but it does not mean it wasn't breast grabbing. It is possible for it to be one, the other, or both at the same time. The question is whether or not it crossed the line. I don't think either of us know that for sure.

I did not say "she waited a long time" as a reason to discredit Tweeden so again you are trying to rewrite the script. I said memory can change and mostly my point is perception seems to be different here.

Okay, I will accept that.

Now we have a person claiming Franken grabbed an ass during a photo. This time Franken says he doesn't believe it happened. There is still a very clear distinction between these serial abusers (we can now add Charlie Rose ) and attempts to conflate accusations against Franken with the others remains a fail.

I don't think there is much more to say here.

I think this is too vague. I have specifically said there is no equivalence between Franken and certain others accused of sexual abuse. I have made no comparison whatsoever with Rose, so you will have to show me where the "fail" is.

It is you, not me, who said that multiple accusers are necessary. Now you seem to be arguing with the narrative in your head, not any interaction we have had.

 

[angrysoba]

Now we have a person claiming Franken grabbed an ass during a photo. This time Franken says he doesn't believe it happened.

I didn't bring this up in our conversation, but now I want to go back and point out that he didn't say he doesn't believe it happened. He doesn't even remember the photograph being taken.

"I take thousands of photos at the state fair surrounded by hundreds of people, and I certainly don't remember taking this picture," Franken said. "I feel badly that Ms. Menz came away from our interaction feeling disrespected."

This doesn't make him guilty, but I notice that he is generally hazy on the details. Whereas in this case, as opposed to what you allege about Tweeden, the accusations were contemporaneous. She apparently posted her assertions at the time, so unlike what you allege with Tweeden, this is not after 10 years of blind, irrational rage.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Continuing to equate the accusations against Franken, regardless of what one thinks about them, with the rest of the current batch of serial sexual assaulters is as absurd as the elevatorgate crowd that suggested men never get on an elevator if a woman alone occupies said elevator lest you frighten her.

Sorry but that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

 

[Brainster]

No, no, no. Our Commander-in-Chief has stated on the record that it's okay to grab pussy if you are a star.

Speaking solely for myself, I've always thought that was an odd one anyway. If a woman gave me a free feel anywhere but only through the clothes I would certainly never pick the crotch. There's just not much feelable there. I would much rather go for the boobs first and the ass second.

[/sexistpig]