Cont: JFK Conspiracy Theories V: Five for Fighting

[MicahJava]

I am trying to solve the mystery of who exactly delivered the new Mahogany casket to the morgue, there are conflicting accounts since probably nobody thought it would be important information.

But in the meantime, check out Roy Kellerman's Warren Commission timeline of events between the end of the autopsy and the beginning of the morticians work:

Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you described all the times that you were absent from the room of the autopsy?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The only other time that I was absent was when the autopsy was about completed before the funeral directors were in, and it was my decision to get Mr. Hill down and view this man for all the damage that was done; so I went up to the floor where they were at and brought him down and he inspected the incisions.

Mr. SPECTER. What was your reason for that, Mr. Kellerman?

Mr. KELLERMAN. More witnesses, Mr. Specter; I think more to view the unfortunate happenings it would be a little better.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did that autopsy start, as you recollect it?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Immediately. Immediately after we brought him right in.

Mr. SPECTER. What time was that approximately, if you have a recollection?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I don't have a recollection.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did it end, if you recollect?

Mr. KELLERMAN. We left the hospital for the White House at 3:56 in the morning.

Mr. SPECTER. 3:56 a.m. on November 23?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did the autopsy last all that time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No. They were going to give these people a couple of hours that they worked on them.

...

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, did you state how long the autopsy lasted when you testified this morning?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I didn't. However, this is going to be an assumption on time; I think I can pin it pretty well.

Mr. SPECTER. Give us your best estimate on that, please.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Let's come back to the period of our arrival at Andrews Air Force Base, which was 5:58 p.m. at night. By the time it took us to take the body from the plane into the ambulance, and a couple of carloads of staff people who followed us, we may have spent 15 minutes there. And in driving from Andrews to the U.S. Naval Hospital, I would judge, a good 45 minutes. So there is 7 o'clock. We went immediately over, without too much delay on the outside of the hospital, into the morgue. The Navy people had their staff in readiness right then. There wasn't anybody to call. They were all there. So at the latest, 7:30, they began to work on the autopsy. And, as I said, we left the hospital at 3:56 in the morning. Let's give the undertaker people 2 hours. So they were through at 2 o'clock in the morning. I would judge offhand that they worked on the autopsy angle 4 1/2, 5 hours.

Mr. SPECTER. And were you present when the funeral director's personnel were preparing the body?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I was; yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And about what time, then, did they complete their work?

Mr. KELLERMAN. They were all through at 3:30.

And also, I found this obscure newspaper article which may feature an important hint on the timeline. I don't have a subscription to newspapers.com, so I can't post a scan, only copy&paste from the OCR text recognition.

It was near 1 A.M. Saturday when Roy Kellerman phoned Clint Hill with the Kennedy group on the seventeenth floor at Bethesda Naval Hospital. "Come on down," he said. "I want you to look at these wounds." The mortuary team from Gawler's funeral home had arrived to embalm the body; the autopsy had been finished. The four men from Gawler's were efficient, but this time it was difficult to keep their hands from trembling. All of the four had lived in and around the capital with this charmer, this buoyant President. Roy Kellerrnan walked over and whispered: "How long?" The answer, whispered, was "Not long." Kellerman asked again: "How long?" An embalmer looked at his wristwatch. "An hour," he said. "An hour and fifteen minutes." Kellerman phoned Clint Hill on the seventeenth floor. "Tell the Attorney General we leave about 3:45," he said. "Tell the White House too."


https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/43091342/, https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/48845840/, https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/44889385/, https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/30159281/, https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/21838299/, https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/87663892/

 

[HSienzant]

I am trying to solve the mystery of who exactly delivered the new Mahogany casket to the morgue, there are conflicting accounts since probably nobody thought it would be important information.

You've broken the case wide open!¹
Hank

PS: There are conflicting accounts because everyone involved was human. Important, middling, or unimportant information all suffer from this in every endeavor. It has nothing to do with a conspiracy, nor with how important the subject is thought to be.

PPS: Are we supposed to not notice you've changed the subject because you got crushed on the last argument you brought up, the time of the call to Dr. Perry vs. the time of the end of the autopsy?
_________________
¹ Not really.

 

[HSienzant]

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, did you state how long the autopsy lasted when you testified this morning?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I didn't. However, this is going to be an assumption on time...

Still trying to move the end of the autopsy to after 2:00 pm by using recollections that are admittedly built on assumptions.

Don't think we didn't notice this, either.

This is why nobody takes conspiracy nonsense seriously on this board.¹
We see you trying to sneak that reference in.

Reminder that the contemporaneous evidence is the autopsy ended about 11pm on Friday night.

Hank
_____________
¹ Except you, of course.

 

[MicahJava]

Lie.

The Secret Service went through it inch by inch, this is how they recovered skull, brain matter, and bullet fragments. The windshield is still in the National Archives.

Apparently that's a lie.

"Late Sunday evening, November 24, the guards were removed from the vehicle and SA Gies and Special Officer Davis and White House Police Officer Hutch began to remove the blood stains and the debris from the car. At that time there were still fragments of bone and hair in the debris of the car which had not been removed by the FBI search team."

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/C%20Disk/Car%20Presidential/Item%2005.pdf

Axxman300, if your job is to clean and inspect a vehicle for forensic evidence, and you leave behind bone fragments and brain tissue, I'm liable to think you didn't do a very good job.

In the 1995 book Hard Evidence by David Fisher, Robert Frazier describes the limousine's examination like this:

The President’s limousine arrived back in Washington about six o' clock. Around one o’clock the next morning Cort (Cortland Cunningham) and I started sifting through the blood looking for lead fragments. It was tough; it was very tough."

Bob Frazier, believed by many experts to be the finest firearms examiner who has ever lived, was speaking for the first time outside a courtroom about the assassination of President John Kennedy. “The yellow roses that Mrs. Kennedy had been holding were scattered all over the back of the car along with Mrs. Connally’s bouquet of red roses, and we had to move them, we had to get them out of the way. We'd just reach down into the clots of blood and scoop it up in our hands and let it dribble through. Whenever we felt something gritty, we’d clean it up and if it was lead, we’d save it in a pillbox. We didn’t really recover a lot of the lead.”

https://archive.org/stream/nsia-HardEvidenceDavidFisher/nsia-HardEvidenceDavidFisher/Hard%20Evidence%20DF%2003_djvu.txt

There's your inch-by-inch forensic examination.

 

[MicahJava]

You've broken the case wide open!¹
Hank

PS: There are conflicting accounts because everyone involved was human. Important, middling, or unimportant information all suffer from this in every endeavor. It has nothing to do with a conspiracy.

PPS: Are we supposed to not notice you've changed the subject because you got crushed on the last argument you brought up, the time of the call to Dr. Perry vs. the time of the end of the autopsy?
_________________

¹ Not really.

sigh

Besides the word of the three autopsy pathologists, what is your evidence that the phone call between Dr. Humes and Dr. Perry took place the day after the autopsy? Perry said he remembered it as Friday night, not Saturday.

 

[HSienzant]

The Secret Service went through it inch by inch, this is how they recovered skull, brain matter, and bullet fragments. The windshield is still in the National Archives.

Apparently that's a lie.

"Late Sunday evening, November 24, the guards were removed from the vehicle and SA Gies and Special Officer Davis and White House Police Officer Hutch began to remove the blood stains and the debris from the car. At that time there were still fragments of bone and hair in the debris of the car which had not been removed by the FBI search team."

Axxman300, if your job is to clean and inspect a vehicle for forensic evidence, and you leave behind bone fragments and brain tissue, I'm liable to think you didn't do a very good job.

What part of his claim that THE SECRET SERVICE did this did you not understand?

In the 1995 book Hard Evidence by David Fisher, Robert Frazier describes the limousine's examination like this:

The President’s limousine arrived back in Washington about six o' clock. Around one o’clock the next morning Cort (Cortland Cunningham) and I started sifting through the blood looking for lead fragments. It was tough; it was very tough."

Bob Frazier, believed by many experts to be the finest firearms examiner who has ever lived, was speaking for the first time outside a courtroom about the assassination of President John Kennedy. “The yellow roses that Mrs. Kennedy had been holding were scattered all over the back of the car along with Mrs. Connally’s bouquet of red roses, and we had to move them, we had to get them out of the way. We'd just reach down into the clots of blood and scoop it up in our hands and let it dribble through. Whenever we felt something gritty, we’d clean it up and if it was lead, we’d save it in a pillbox. We didn’t really recover a lot of the lead.”

https://archive.org/stream/nsia-HardEvidenceDavidFisher/nsia-HardEvidenceDavidFisher/Hard%20Evidence%20DF%2003_djvu.txt

There's your inch-by-inch forensic examination.

So the FBI was looking for a specific item, bullets or bullet fragments. Yes, they ignored the blood, brains, and fragments of skull. They knew the source of those. It would be President Kennedy's head that the blood, brains, and bits of skull came from.

What did you expect them to do, collect all that and subject it to DNA testing to establish it was JFK's and not a JFK double's?

What did you source say about the follow-up inspection by the SECRET SERVICE?

Hank

 

[MicahJava]

Unless of course conspirators are in the habit of allowing random civilians to witness their evil cover ups without clearance being given? Seems a worrying lapse in Naval security to allow a bunch of morticians onto a base without clearance.

There would not be any reason to cover up the early throat wound discovery at that time.

And apparently you don't know that the morticians did have a difficult time getting into the morgue because of the security.

 

[HSienzant]

sigh

Besides the word of the three autopsy pathologists, what is your evidence that the phone call between Dr. Humes and Dr. Perry took place the day after the autopsy? Perry said he remembered it as Friday night, not Saturday.

This is something you need to prove, not me.

You've been all over the map, claiming the call was as early as 'about midnight' and as late as '10:30 - noon' on Saturday.

I've already stated that if Perry received the call at 11:45pm on Friday night Dallas time, that would be 12:45am ('early Saturday morning' as Humes testified) Washington time.

And I already pointed out "We have a resolution here. Not that you'll accept it".

2:00 am is 'sometime after midnight'. We have a resolution here. Not that you'll accept it.

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

There would not be any reason to cover up the early throat wound discovery at that time.

You were claiming the exact opposite on the prior page.

Did you forget already?

Drs. Humes, Boswell, and Finck may have determined that the throat wound represented something incompatible with the official story. So later they concocted a story about the phone call to Dr. Perry at Parkland hospital in Dallas happening long after Kennedy's body was inaccessible, after the autopsy and after the mortician's work was completed, later in the morning hours of 11/23.

So yesterday there was a reason to cover up the wound, and the autopsists made up a cover story.
Today there is no reason to cover up anything.

Which is it? Do you even have a clue?

This is why you make no traction here. You don't even know what you're going to argue from page to page. You argue one side, then another, flitting from conspiracy argument to conspiracy argument, never once landing on the most reasonable explanation.

People learn to discount that kind of nonsense very quickly.

And apparently you don't know that the morticians did have a difficult time getting into the morgue because of the security.

Doesn't matter, does it? As they got in and started their work "after 11pm" according to the contemporaneous evidence.

Hank

 

[MicahJava]

How many times have I pointed out how ridiculous that is?

 

[HSienzant]

How many times have I pointed out how ridiculous that is?

Since you link to nothing, how do you expect us to know what this is in reply to?

Or does this cover all the preceding posts that disagree with you?

Besides, your claims are not evidence. You can claim something is ridiculous all you want, doesn't make it so.

You know what is ridiculous? Posting a claim that's something's ridiculous without linking to the specific claim you're claiming is ridiculous.

Hank

 

[Tomtomkent]

There would not be any reason to cover up the early throat wound discovery at that time.

And apparently you don't know that the morticians did have a difficult time getting into the morgue because of the security.

Or perhaps I was aware of the security issues and am noting that is one reason why it is more likely they attended after the autopsy, when clearance was given.

Can you see why posts like this further undermine your timeline?

 

[MicahJava]

At the mock trial, John T. Orr will be discussing the serious possibility that CE567 contains muscle tissue. Last I checked, the parietal area does not contain muscle, only the temporal, frontal, and occipital areas.

 

[abaddon]

At the mock trial, John T. Orr will be discussing the serious possibility that CE567 contains muscle tissue. Last I checked, the parietal area does not contain muscle, only the temporal, frontal, and occipital areas.

You know that is untrue. Why did you post such a thing?

 

[MicahJava]

You know that is untrue. Why did you post such a thing?

Enlighten me?

 

[Axxman300]

Apparently that's a lie.

"Late Sunday evening, November 24, the guards were removed from the vehicle and SA Gies and Special Officer Davis and White House Police Officer Hutch began to remove the blood stains and the debris from the car. At that time there were still fragments of bone and hair in the debris of the car which had not been removed by the FBI search team."

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/C%20Disk/Car%20Presidential/Item%2005.pdf

Axxman300, if your job is to clean and inspect a vehicle for forensic evidence, and you leave behind bone fragments and brain tissue, I'm liable to think you didn't do a very good job.

In the 1995 book Hard Evidence by David Fisher, Robert Frazier describes the limousine's examination like this:

The President’s limousine arrived back in Washington about six o' clock. Around one o’clock the next morning Cort (Cortland Cunningham) and I started sifting through the blood looking for lead fragments. It was tough; it was very tough."

Bob Frazier, believed by many experts to be the finest firearms examiner who has ever lived, was speaking for the first time outside a courtroom about the assassination of President John Kennedy. “The yellow roses that Mrs. Kennedy had been holding were scattered all over the back of the car along with Mrs. Connally’s bouquet of red roses, and we had to move them, we had to get them out of the way. We'd just reach down into the clots of blood and scoop it up in our hands and let it dribble through. Whenever we felt something gritty, we’d clean it up and if it was lead, we’d save it in a pillbox. We didn’t really recover a lot of the lead.”

https://archive.org/stream/nsia-HardEvidenceDavidFisher/nsia-HardEvidenceDavidFisher/Hard%20Evidence%20DF%2003_djvu.txt

There's your inch-by-inch forensic examination.

Wow, you debunked my claim that they did a thorough job by posting evidence that they did a thorough job....did not see that coming...

 

[MicahJava]

A "thorough job" doesn't involve literally calling an upholstery company to remove and destroy the padding, cushioning, etc.

 

[HSienzant]

Enlighten me?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/Temporal_muscle_animation.gif

Compare to the damage to JFK's skull, especially over the right ear. The damage extends all the way down to the level of top of the ear.

And look at this picture. The muscles of the forehead extend almost to the top of the head.

https://cdn.slidesharecdn.com/ss_th...103835-phpapp02-thumbnail-4.jpg?cb=1355222867

Compare to the damage known to be present in the large exit wound.

You appear to have abandoned your arguments for the autopsy lasting until after 2am on Saturday morning at this point. We're not fooled, we know you'll back arguing for that fringe reset shortly, pretending that you weren't schooled in this subject.

Hank

 

[Axxman300]

sigh

Besides the word of the three autopsy pathologists, what is your evidence that the phone call between Dr. Humes and Dr. Perry took place the day after the autopsy? Perry said he remembered it as Friday night, not Saturday.

Who cares?

You are basing this latest nonsense on crap from a book written by a man who believed the body was switched at Love Field, secretly flown to D.C. where it was surgically altered to hide all of the bullet wounds that came from the front, and make it look like he was shot from the back.

His timeline is only important if you believe that the body was switched, and that the shots came from the front.

 

[Axxman300]

A "thorough job" doesn't involve literally calling an upholstery company to remove and destroy the padding, cushioning, etc.

There were no bullet holes in the upholstery, just two of the occupants.