Cont: JFK Conspiracy Theories V: Five for Fighting

[HSienzant]

Wow, you're bad at getting hung up on words.

That's your way of admitting you said 'before dawn', "after dawn', and 'around dawn', while building your various strawman arguments.

Yes, words have meanings.

How many hours was Humes with the body with the funeral home people after the autopsy completed?

This is your case you're trying to build. You present the evidence. And show why it's pertinent.

1 AM is not "still in play" for you. He still had the body then.

He said the autopsy concluded about 11pm on Friday night. He said the phone call happened 'early Saturday morning'. 1:00 AM is 'early Saturday morning'.

It is inevitable to conclude that the autopsy doctors discovered the throat wound around midnight while they, or at least Humes, still had the body for examination.

Not according to the testimony of the people who were actually there and partook in the autopsy. The phone call happened sometime after the autopsy was concluded and the body turned over to the morticians for preparation for viewing.

Although you do have me interested in exactly when Burkley left Bethesda hospital or when he went to sleep.

Your conspiracy argument, not mine. We'll await your evidence.

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

I think you're the confused one.

Sorry, no. My evidence holds together and makes sense.

The official story is that Dr. Humes called Dr. Perry at around 10:30 - 12:00, whatever, several hours after the body had completed examination by Humes. Keep in mind that Humes was present for the mortician's work on the body.

Quote "the official story" on that. Bet you can't. "Whatever"? You mean you don't know the official story, and are just making it up?

Once the body was turned over to the morticians, the autopsy was over.

I am saying that I think Dr. Humes et. al lied about this,

We know what you're saying. We're asking you to cite the evidence for that.

and that they actually called Dr. Perry around midnight during the autopsy shortly after the FBI agents departed at 11:30 PM, and discussed this in front of the autopsy witnesses, and probably probed the wound.

Who is 'they'? Humes made the call to Perry. No one else was involved.

And wait. A few posts ago, the phone call was at about noon on Saturday? Now it's around midnight on Friday night?

Do you remember arguing for the "about noon on Saturday" here:

Humes, Boswell, and Finck have been clear that by "Saturday morning", they mean the first contact with Dr. Perry happened at around 10:30 AM 11/23/1963, not midnight when they still had the body.

And here:

...Dr. Humes clarified that he meant 10:30 AM - 12:00 PM, 6-8 hours after completing the examination of the body.

I think you need to make up your mind.

Whatever they discovered about the throat wound was covered up with the lie that they only realized the tracheotomy was made over a bullet hole long after the autopsy when body was inaccessible.

"Whatever they discovered"?

What do you think they discovered, and how does changing the time by a few hours aid in the cover-up? I need more specifics here. Your argument is awfully unclear.

Hank

 

[Steve]

What is your theory on why either George Barnum or the autopsy doctors are wrong?

What is your hypothesis on what happened that day? Why was JFK shot? Who shot him? Where was the shooter who fired the shot that killed him? Please provide as much detail as you can.

 

[HSienzant]

What is your hypothesis on what happened that day? Why was JFK shot? Who shot him? Where was the shooter who fired the shot that killed him? Please provide as much detail as you can.

He can't do that. Like all conspiracy theorists, all he knows is what didn't happen.... by golly, if the government says Oswald did it, then Oswald didn't do it. It's the "Anybody But Oswald" syndrome.

They will accuse Oswald's acquaintances like Ruth and Michael Paine, his co-worker like Wes Frazier, an ex-Marine he knew like John Heindel or Kerry Thornton, they will accuse anti-Castro Cubans, pro-Castro Cubans, the Mafia, the CIA, the FBI, the Dallas Police, the Russians, the Cubans, the far right, just about anybody but the guy the evidence points to, Lee Harvey Oswald.

MicahJava can't say who shot JFK from where, because he had no clue. All he knows is Oswald didn't do it.

Ask him how he knows that.

He probably can't explain that either.

He just knows.

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

From BEST EVIDENCE:

In his November 29, 1963 account, Coast Guardsman George Barnum wrote that as the men were having sandwhiches and coffee sometime after midnight, Admiral Burkley came in and talked to them, and said three shots had been fired, that the President had been hit by the first and third, and he described the trajectories of the two that struck:

"The first striking him in the lower neck and coming out near the throat. The second shot striking him above and to the rear of the right ear, this shot not coming out...."

2:00 am is 'sometime after midnight'.

We have a resolution here.

Not that you'll accept it.

Hank

 

[cmikes]

Another strawman by you.

Either you have no argument (and you know you have no argument) or you have a severe reading comprehension deficit. Hence the strawman / erroneous interpretation. Choose one.

Embrace the power of "and"!

 

[Axxman300]

What?

You said Lifton's book confirmed everything you believe. Lifton concluded the shots all came from the front, and the body was altered before the autopsy.

Unless you care to admit you have not read the entire book, and thus have made a fool yourself by siting a ridiculous source.

 

[MicahJava]

I would probably accept the "2 AM" resolution, since they almost certainly still had the body then. The autopsy participants have always said that their examination of the body went on some time after the morticians arrived. Documents from Gawler's funeral time say that they arrived at the morgue at 11:30 PM, and the witnesses from Gawler's say that they say the autopsy go on longer after they arrived. Dr. Humes also stayed at the morgue to supervise the mortician's work for a few hours after the autopsy officially ended.

 

[MicahJava]

You said Lifton's book confirmed everything you believe. Lifton concluded the shots all came from the front, and the body was altered before the autopsy.

Unless you care to admit you have not read the entire book, and thus have made a fool yourself by siting a ridiculous source.

That's Lifton's personal theory. It has nothing to do with his meticulous work at interviewing witnesses and finding important documentation.

 

[HSienzant]

I would probably accept the "2 AM" resolution, since they almost certainly still had the body then. The autopsy participants have always said that their examination of the body went on some time after the morticians arrived. Documents from Gawler's funeral time say that they arrived at the morgue at 11:30 PM, and the witnesses from Gawler's say that they say the autopsy go on longer after they arrived. Dr. Humes also stayed at the morgue to supervise the mortician's work for a few hours after the autopsy officially ended.

None of that means Humes or anyone else was inspecting the body any further. The body was turned over to the morticians for cosmetic treatment. The autopsy concluded about 11pm on Friday. As Humes could summarize, "I had the cause of death. Two bullets struck the President from above and behind. One bullet exited the throat over which the Parkland surgeons made a tracheotomy, and the other exited the top right side of the skull."

We are done here. There is no mystery in any of this, and there is no conspiracy evidence in any of this.

Unless you want to keep beating a dead horse in the vain hope he will get up and walk again.

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

That's Lifton's personal theory. It has nothing to do with his meticulous work at interviewing witnesses and finding important documentation.

His 'important documentation' consists for the most part in interviewing or re-interviewing witnesses years, even decades after the fact all in the furtherance of the most bizarre theory ever devised in the JFK conspiracy theorist annals.

Except for maybe his own earlier theory, that the grassy knoll was actually an underground bunker and the assassins were disguised as trees on the knoll.

Reminds me of "The Wizard of Oz" movie for some reason.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9bbxNV7QY8

Hank

 

[RoboTimbo]

MicahJava, now you know to look for assassins who say "Hoom Hum!" a lot.

 

[Dave Rogers]

I'm having a bit of trouble following what MicahJava's getting at here. What difference does it make who phoned whom and when to tell them that JFK had an exit wound in his throat? Ideally I'd like someone other than MJ to tell me, because MJ's explanations tend not to make things any clearer.

Dave

 

[MicahJava]

None of that means Humes or anyone else was inspecting the body any further. The body was turned over to the morticians for cosmetic treatment. The autopsy concluded about 11pm on Friday. As Humes could summarize, "I had the cause of death. Two bullets struck the President from above and behind. One bullet exited the throat over which the Parkland surgeons made a tracheotomy, and the other exited the top right side of the skull."

We are done here. There is no mystery in any of this, and there is no conspiracy evidence in any of this.

Unless you want to keep beating a dead horse in the vain hope he will get up and walk again.

Hank

If Humes learned about the throat wound while he still had access to the body, he would have done something or said something. Unless you want to invoke some kind of incompetence theory wherein Humes decided he was literally too lazy to investigate the throat wound any further or somehow didn't have the jurisdiction.

Humes claimed to the HSCA "...Having completed the examination and remaining to assist the morticians in the preparation of the body, we did not leave the autopsy room until 5:30 or 6 in the morning". Then much later after that he claimed he finally contacted Perry and learned about the original small throat wound.

Meanwhile, twelve witnesses (Dr. Perry of Parkland hospital, George Barnum of the Coast Guard, Jim Snyder of CBS, Joe Hagan and Tom Robinson of Gawler's funeral home, autopsy photographer John Stringer, autopsy witnesses Dr. Robert Karnei, Lieutenant Richard Lipsey, assistant James Curtis Jenkins, radiologist John Ebersole, White house photographer Robert Knudsen, Dr. Paul Peters of Parkland hospital) made statements indicating the autopsy doctors knew about the throat wound during the autopsy, as they were examining the body. Dr. Boswell has made Freudian slips on two occasions indicating the same thing.

 

[MicahJava]

I'm having a bit of trouble following what MicahJava's getting at here. What difference does it make who phoned whom and when to tell them that JFK had an exit wound in his throat? Ideally I'd like someone other than MJ to tell me, because MJ's explanations tend not to make things any clearer.

Dave

If they knew about the original small throat wound during the autopsy, but lied and said they only learned about it the next day when the body was inaccessible, then that indicates they were trying to cover something up.

 

[Dave Rogers]

If they knew about the original small throat wound during the autopsy, but lied and said they only learned about it the next day when the body was inaccessible, then that indicates they were trying to cover something up.

It seems to me, though, that there were two levels of knowledge here. One would expect that the people conducting the autopsy would be aware that there was a wound in the throat, as it's kind of the point of the autopsy to find stuff like that; however, as they knew about the tracheotomy, they might not have known that it was an exit wound. It also seems to me, though, that there's abundant scope for confusion after the fact as to who had what partial knowledge at one point, and one would expect some conflation of memory to the point that witnesses may have believed, viewing events retrospectively, that they knew the throat wound was an exit wound before in fact they found out. I would think that the burden of proof in such a case should be set extremely high.

So if you're claiming that certain people "knew about the throat wound" at certain times, that isn't good enough; anybody involved in the autopsy could have known that JFK had a throat wound. You'd have to establish with certainty that they knew how the throat wound was caused, and that level of certainty would have to exclude the very reasonable possibility that they got slightly confused about what partial knowledge was acquired at what time.

And that's only the first step. There are more to take before there's grounds for reasonable suspicion that someone was covering something specific up. Though, of course, you'll no doubt obsess on the second step in order to gloss over the fact that you haven't actually taken the first.

Dave

 

[MicahJava]

If you want to think everybody's memory changed in the same way, you must only do so after reading the important statements from the people who were there.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11931229&postcount=956

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11931291&postcount=962

Note: the passage from William Manchester's book The Death of a President is almost certainly from Joe Hagan of Gawler's funeral home, while I previously thought it came from the President's personal physician Dr. George Burkley.

I also did not add autopsy assistant James Curtis Jenkins to the list, as that information was from David Lifton's book BEST EVIDENCE, which I did not have a copy of at the time.

 

[Dave Rogers]

If you want to think everybody's memory changed in the same way, you must only do so after reading the important statements from the people who were there.

The idea that "everybody's memory changed in the same way" doesn't come through in these; I think that's purely your personal construct, and one that the facts don't support. Having trawled through the first few, it seems fairly clear that people's recollections are all over the place, and nobody can recall exactly who know what when. It's a classic piece of conspiracy theorist's anomaly hunting. People get things wrong, days, months and years after the fact; so what?

Dave

 

[HSienzant]

If Humes learned about the throat wound while he still had access to the body, he would have done something or said something.

Investigation 101 according to MicahJava.

Unless you want to invoke some kind of incompetence theory wherein Humes decided he was literally too lazy to investigate the throat wound any further or somehow didn't have the jurisdiction.

Humes Quote: "I had the cause of death."

Humes claimed to the HSCA "...Having completed the examination and remaining to assist the morticians in the preparation of the body, we did not leave the autopsy room until 5:30 or 6 in the morning". Then much later after that he claimed he finally contacted Perry and learned about the original small throat wound.

You need to make up your mind. You're all over the place. Earlier you placed the phone call as about midnight. Which is it?

I am saying that I think Dr. Humes et. al lied about this, and that they actually called Dr. Perry around midnight...

You flop around like a fish on a boat deck.

Meanwhile, twelve witnesses (Dr. Perry of Parkland hospital, George Barnum of the Coast Guard, Jim Snyder of CBS, Joe Hagan and Tom Robinson of Gawler's funeral home, autopsy photographer John Stringer, autopsy witnesses Dr. Robert Karnei, Lieutenant Richard Lipsey, assistant James Curtis Jenkins, radiologist John Ebersole, White house photographer Robert Knudsen, Dr. Paul Peters of Parkland hospital) made statements indicating the autopsy doctors knew about the throat wound during the autopsy, as they were examining the body.

Your attempts at quote-mining has been exposed. Hearsay and recollections from decades after the fact are pretty much meaningless. How could, for example, Dr. Paul Peters of Parkland IN DALLAS know what the Bethesda doctors knew and when they knew it?

Knudson has been exposed as a serial fabricator... claiming he was the autopsy photographer, but he wasn't even at the autopsy.

We've seen that Barnum said nothing about the doctors knowing the throat wound was anything more than a trache during the autopsy. Humes places the autopsy's completion about 11pm on Friday night Washington time, and Barnum says Burkley mentioned the wounds "sometime after midnight".

You are just making stuff up now and throwing all those names into a Gish Gallop Alphabet Soup.

Dr. Boswell has made Freudian slips on two occasions indicating the same thing.

I thought Hoover was the one who dressed in lingerie.

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

If they knew about the original small throat wound during the autopsy, but lied and said they only learned about it the next day when the body was inaccessible, then that indicates they were trying to cover something up.

True, but meaningless, because you haven't established they learned about the small throat wound during the autopsy.

Even Dr. Perry confirmed the substance of the phone call as calling to learn about the trache, and him only then telling Humes about the bullet wound in the throat.

This has already been related to you. No matter where you turn, you find the evidence against you.

Don't let that stop you. You've got a theory, and by golly, you're going to push that rock uphill no matter what. But look at this kick in the pants:

Mr. SPECTER - Dr. Perry, did you have occasion to discuss your observations with Comdr. James J. Humes of the Bethesda Naval Hospital?
Dr. PERRY - Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. SPECTER - When did that conversation occur?
Dr. PERRY - My knowledge as to the exact accuracy of it is obviously in doubt. I was under the initial impression that I talked to him on Friday, but I understand it was on Saturday. I didn't recall exactly when.
Mr. SPECTER - Do you have an independent recollection at this moment as to whether it was on Friday or Saturday?
Dr. PERRY - No, sir; I have thought about it again and the events surrounding that weekend were very kaleidoscopic, and I talked with Dr. Humes on two occasions, separated by a very short interval of, I think it was, 30 minutes or an hour or so, it could have been a little longer.
Mr. SPECTER - What was the medium of your conversation?
Dr. PERRY - Over the telephone.
Mr. SPECTER - Did he identify himself to you as Dr. Humes of Bethesda?
Dr. PERRY - He did.
Mr. SPECTER - Would you state as specifically as you can recollect the conversation that you first had with him?
Dr. PERRY - He advised me that he could not discuss with me the findings of necropsy, that he had a few questions he would like to clarify. The initial phone call was in relation to my doing a tracheotomy. Since I had made the incision directly through the wound in the neck, it made it difficult for them to ascertain the exact nature of this wound. Of course, that did not occur to me at the time. I did what appeared to me to be medically expedient. And when I informed him that there was a wound there and I suspected an underlying wound of the trachea and even perhaps of the great vessels he advised me that he thought this action was correct and he said he could not relate to me any of the other findings.
Mr. SPECTER - Would you relate to me in lay language what necropsy is?
Dr. PERRY - Autopsy, postmortem examination.

Oh look, there it goes rolling downhill again. Time to start over.

Hank