Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts

[Joe Random]

That seems like a reasonable option.

Although I'd prefer to just see the segregation done away with altogether. Let's just do "Scouts" in general, and let everyone have an opportunity at marksmanship and tailoring both!

Paving the way for children of both sexes to try and hector me into buying cookies in front of the supermarket when I'm just trying to pick up some Nyquil and tissues.

Thanks, Obama Trump err, BSA.

 

[crescent]

This might be a better post for the education forum, but I seem to recall some work showing that both boys and girls do better with a sort of partial separation - such as they go to the same school and mostly attend the same classes, but some classes are boys-only and some are girls-only.

The girls benefit from not being talked over by boys in every class, but also learn to assert themselves.

I was thinking that the idea of mixed gender packs/troops with single-gender dens/patrols ties into that. Functionally, at least. My guess is that it is actually being done a some sort of compromise, so that the more rightward leaning groups can still exclude girls.

 

[Emily's Cat]

This might be a better post for the education forum, but I seem to recall some work showing that both boys and girls do better with a sort of partial separation - such as they go to the same school and mostly attend the same classes, but some classes are boys-only and some are girls-only.

The girls benefit from not being talked over by boys in every class, but also learn to assert themselves.

Thus reinforcing the social norm that it's okay for women to be assertive with other women, but shouldn't try to compete with men... ?

 

[cullennz]

Thus reinforcing the social norm that it's okay for women to be assertive with other women, but shouldn't try to compete with men... ?

This has to be one of the more extreme leaps of logic I have seen in my time.

 

[crescent]

Thus reinforcing the social norm that it's okay for women to be assertive with other women, but shouldn't try to compete with men... ?

By giving them a place to practice being assertive without being talked over by those who try to enforce the social norm, while also providing a place to use those learned skills to compete in mixed gender settings.

The concern has been that in a high-school social setting, many girls won't even try to compete with the boys, for a variety of reasons (getting talked over, getting criticized for being bossy, all that).

Girls in girls-only environments learn the subjects better, learn to be assertive around other girls, but still might be shocked into silence by over-assertive boys (ETA once they move beyond the school setting, that is).

Boys in boys-only environments can also learn subjects better, but can lag in social development compared to boys in mixed gender settings (like what is sometimes seen in Frat houses or military settings).

Plus, teenage hormones really can interfere with paying attention, among both boys and girls.

So you mix it - they get both environments. They get to have some same-gender classes with focus on learning subjects, but also get mixed-gender activities to focus on social development.

Scouts could be the same way.

 

[Emily's Cat]

By giving them a place to practice being assertive without being talked over by those who try to enforce the social norm, while also providing a place to use those learned skills to compete in mixed gender settings.

The concern has been that in a high-school social setting, many girls won't even try to compete with the boys, for a variety of reasons (getting talked over, getting criticized for being bossy, all that).

Girls in girls-only environments learn the subjects better, learn to be assertive around other girls, but still might be shocked into silence by over-assertive boys (ETA once they move beyond the school setting, that is).

Boys in boys-only environments can also learn subjects better, but can lag in social development compared to boys in mixed gender settings (like what is sometimes seen in Frat houses or military settings).

Plus, teenage hormones really can interfere with paying attention, among both boys and girls.

So you mix it - they get both environments. They get to have some same-gender classes with focus on learning subjects, but also get mixed-gender activities to focus on social development.

Scouts could be the same way.

My point is that females have never really had any trouble being assertive around other females. If the only opportunity to practice such assertion is around other females... then there's not really any headway being made when confronted with males who take their assertiveness for granted, and who view assertive women as bossy and bitchy.

The only way around that thorn, so far as I can tell, is to teach assertiveness in a mixed setting. If females are sheltered from having to compete with men, guess what they never learn to do? Yep - compete with men. And to gain more equitable opportunities in business and STEM fields, women must be able to compete with men.

 

[cullennz]

My point is that females have never really had any trouble being assertive around other females. If the only opportunity to practice such assertion is around other females... then there's not really any headway being made when confronted with males who take their assertiveness for granted, and who view assertive women as bossy and bitchy.

We are talking about kids, not a board room

Kids learn better in environments they feel more comfortable in.

It is learning to be assertive and then once comfortable, taking this into an adult environment

Geez. It is even what adults do

It's the same reason "Toastmasters" and "female Toast masters" and "female professional networking groups" are so popular.

And I assume these are ok with you

 

[Emily's Cat]

We are talking about kids, not a board room

Kids learn better in environments they feel more comfortable in.

It is learning to be assertive and then once comfortable, taking this into an adult environment

Geez. It is even what adults do

So... your theory is that females will learn how to be assertive with males by never having to be assertive with males until they're adults? Am I reading that right?

It's the same reason "Toastmasters" and "female Toast masters" and "female professional networking groups" are so popular.

And I assume these are ok with you

I've never run across a "Female Toastmasters". The only one in the us is co-ed. As far as professional networking goes, yes, I have a problem with that being gender-specific too, and no, those aren't okay with me.


ETA: Fun fact here - I initially misread "female professional networking groups" as "female professional wrestling". That seemed really odd so I re-read before responding.

 

[Meadmaker]

Thus reinforcing the social norm that it's okay for women to be assertive with other women, but shouldn't try to compete with men... ?

That is a very good point, and something I was thinking about when I saw the GSA commentary on this move. They think that girls are more likely to thrive, or less likely to take a back seat, if there's an all-girl space, and I have no doubt that's true, but there are no all-girl spaces in careers or most social environments. It's a mixed-gender world. Why have these sheltered spots in childhood/teenage environments?

 

[cullennz]

So... your theory is that females will learn how to be assertive with males by never having to be assertive with males until they're adults? Am I reading that right?

No. They will learn to be assertive in a setting where it is most comfortable for them to learn to be.

Which then helps them in the co-ed times the other poster mentioned.

Wherever that takes them in their adulthood is entirely up to them.

I'd just add

This might be hard for you to believe as I doubt it fits your theory

But there are boys who are scared to show assertiveness in front of girls as well and perform better among just boys.

I've never run across a "Female Toastmasters". The only one in the us is co-ed. As far as professional networking goes, yes, I have a problem with that being gender-specific too, and no, those aren't okay with me.

There are many women toastmasters in the US

Just google Women Toastmasters

ETA: Fun fact here - I initially misread "female professional networking groups" as "female professional wrestling". That seemed really odd so I re-read before responding.

Lol

 

[cullennz]

Why have these sheltered spots in childhood/teenage environments?

The same reason they have

Toastmasters
Women Toastmasters
Womens network groups

In adult environments

Apparently it works

 

[Checkmite]

Paving the way for children of both sexes to try and hector me into buying cookies in front of the supermarket when I'm just trying to pick up some Nyquil and tissues.

This situation already exists; the Boy Scouts for the last several decades have sold varieties of popcorn in the same way that Girl Scouts sell cookies. The popcorn is not nearly as famous; still, if you've never encountered a table pushing it at the grocery entrance consider yourself lucky.

 

[TheGoldcountry]

This situation already exists; the Boy Scouts for the last several decades have sold varieties of popcorn in the same way that Girl Scouts sell cookies. The popcorn is not nearly as famous; still, if you've never encountered a table pushing it at the grocery entrance consider yourself lucky.

I hate that ****. Same as schools selling wrapping paper, chocolate bars, etc. Companies selling overpriced crap that probably wouldn't sell if not for adults feeling the need to "help the kids", taking 50% off the top simply for organizing their free child labor force. Perverse.

 

[madurobob]

I hate that ****. Same as schools selling wrapping paper, chocolate bars, etc. Companies selling overpriced crap that probably wouldn't sell if not for adults feeling the need to "help the kids", taking 50% off the top simply for organizing their free child labor force. Perverse.

On the other had, they - scouting - wouldn't do it if it didn't work.

They need donations to keep doing what they do and keep it affordable for less fortunate families. They also like having the kids involved in owning some part of that relationship. Scouts have loads of ways to raise funds, but the bottom line is most folks simply won't donate because its good for the kids; they want something tangible in return. Popcorn works. Customers know its overpriced, but they get to have some tasty chocolate caramel crunch to go along with their feelings of having done something good for the kids.

Popcorn sales have been a big boon to scouting, providing more cash in than any other single fundraising activity. They keep doing it because it best impacts their bottom line for the effort put in. You won't find many scoutmasters who think their scouts are being ripped off or exploited by the popcorn company.

 

[Meadmaker]

Yeah, sometimes it's annoying to be hit up for cash when all you really want is to get some oven cleaner at the hardware store, but it's a civic duty. One of life's little annoyances necessary to build a community.

And.....Thin Mints are awesome.

 

[Meadmaker]

The same reason they have

Toastmasters
Women Toastmasters
Womens network groups

In adult environments

Apparently it works

Let me correct my question. Why force the segregation at that age? I can understand single-sex dens or patrols if that's what is desired and there are enough scouts in a pack/troop to support it, but why make it mandatory?

 

[Joe Random]

I've encountered Boy Scouts selling popcorn from a table in front of the market, but no where near as frequently as Girl Scouts and cookies. Plus the Boy Scouts seem to have a far less 'in your face' approach to their hawking. Not sure if that's from a position of respect for shoppers, or a lack of enthusiasm (I'm guessing the latter). In either case I've never had a Boy Scout detach from the wares table and head on an intercept course for me the way the Girl Scouts do. I actually don't eat cookies or popcorn, so I can turn both down without feeling guilty.

I spent about 4 years in scouts myself and I don't seem to remember that aggressive level of fundraising in my troop. Maybe I just got lucky?

 

[madurobob]

I spent about 4 years in scouts myself and I don't seem to remember that aggressive level of fundraising in my troop. Maybe I just got lucky?

Some troops are better funded than others and have less need to fund raise. Popcorn sales was never a big deal for my kids in scouts, but the pack/troop did give awards for various levels of sales. So, individual scouts (and their parents) could choose to take it as seriously as they wished.

In my kids cub scout careers it was always a parent or two who reached out to retail locations and secured an agreement to let scouts set up shop for a day or two (it wasn't the pack/troop in any official manner making the request). Then, whatever scouts showed up got a portion of the sales credit. This saved the scouts from going door-to-door or relying on parents needling their office mates, etc.. and was a big help to scouts from poorer families.

 

[cullennz]

Let me correct my question. Why force the segregation at that age? I can understand single-sex dens or patrols if that's what is desired and there are enough scouts in a pack/troop to support it, but why make it mandatory?

No idea if or why it is mandatory

If it is I would guess that it is probably easier to have one set of guidelines than different groups doing their on morphed version of it and having to deal with flack if it goes wrong

 

[Checkmite]

It might seem odd to say so since I'm the one who brought up the popcorn - but my troop never sold it. Basically when a troop sells the popcorn, a cut of the proceeds goes to the regional or national council (I forget which - maybe even both - or exactly how much). The troop gets the remainder. My troop's leadership did not like the idea of us doing all the work for only part of the money, so we fundraised by holding car washes instead and the troop kept all of the proceeds.