A Humbling Journey: Theism to Atheism...

[abaddon]

I don't blame them. But nevertheless it is our silence that the believers are counting on. They feel they have an overwhelming majority and are free to create a coercive environment. The last thing they want is for society to say the emperor is naked. Contrary to the story, one person is not enough.

See, you have to accept that in Western Europe, atheism is no biggy.

All of us are looking at the US, the purported leader of the free world, and thinking WTF? While the separation of church and state is enshrined, getting elected as anything, even a park ranger, is predicated on the requirement that one must be some flavour of christian.

 

[Autolite]

sigh... you never made that claim before. You specifically referenced Catholic view on evolution, and that adam and eve was allegorical, and now you are pretending to ask whether this makes the Bible wrong?

Do you not understand what allegorical means?

smfh

The bible does not tell us that the 'Adam-n-Eve' story is an allegory. It's folks like the Archbishop who are telling us that that is how we are suppose to interpret it.

What we're being told is that something that means something other than what it exactly says is not the same thing as being wrong. I have a problem with that kind of rationale but I will concede that that's maybe just me...

 

[MikeG]

That's interesting.

On another forum the most vile, obnoxious and profanity laced replies I received for my Atheist stance came from a fella in England. Maybe I just engage with the wrong sort of people...

Yebbut, no critical thinker would draw any conclusions from a sample size of 1 and personal experience, would they.

 

[MikeG]

The bible does not tell us that the 'Adam-n-Eve' story is an allegory. It's folks like the Archbishop who are telling us that that is how we are suppose to interpret it.

What we're being told is that something that means something other than what it exactly says is not the same thing as being wrong or 'infallible'. I have a problem with that kind of rationale but I will concede that maybe that's just me...

Why wouldn't the authors of any book feel free to use any rhetorical device which helped them get their point across? Whoever wrote the bible, why would it be any different?

When you read The Lion The Witch and The Wardrobe did you really think it was a story of what happened behind a wardrobe? I mean, nowhere in the book does it say it is an allegory for religion, does it. Same with The Waterbabies.

 

[abaddon]

sigh... you never made that claim before. You specifically referenced Catholic view on evolution, and that adam and eve was allegorical, and now you are pretending to ask whether this makes the Bible wrong?

Not only does it make the bible flat out wrong, what is it an allegory for?

Do you not understand what allegorical means?

smfh

Because you don't know. According to the RCC Genesis is an alegory for what, exactly?

 

[Autolite]

That's what's called "moving the goalposts". I provided you exactly what you asked for. Having done so, you are now pretending that you asked for something different.

I was told earlier that "most" Christians do not consider the (entire) bible to be "the infallible word of god". I'm just looking for someone in position of religious authority to make the same assertion. I just haven't seen this yet...

 

[Autolite]

When you read The Lion The Witch and The Wardrobe did you really think it was a story of what happened behind a wardrobe? I mean, nowhere in the book does it say it is an allegory for religion, does it. Same with The Waterbabies.

Such stories were never passed off as being 'for-real'. OTOH, all the stories in the Bible were initially taught to me (and I suspect very many others) in Sunday School and Church as being literally true. The back-tracking on this has only come out piecemeal over very many years...

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I was told earlier that "most" Christians do not consider the (entire) bible to be "the infallible word of god". I'm just looking for someone in position of religious authority to make the same assertion. I just haven't seen this yet...

I gave you three examples. That you're ignoring them doesn't mean that they don't exist.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Such stories were never passed off as being 'for-real'. OTOH, all the stories in the Bible were initially taught to me (and I suspect very many others) in Sunday School and Church as being literally true. The back-tracking on this has only come out piecemeal over very many years...

Actually (as I'd hoped you'd know from research you'd done, considering your claim to want to understand religion, and would therefore have been reminded of by my several references to St. Augustine of Hippo), Biblical literalism is a relatively new idea, dating more or less from the Enlightenment. Throughout the majority of the history of Christianity, everybody would have understood the stories to be at least partially allegorical in nature.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Let me provide one more source that should hopefully set you on the right track. If you don't know who Karen Armstrong is, she's a nun and is one of the world's most well-respected historians of Abrahamic religions. She is considered one of the highest authorities on the history of Abrahamic religions. She is respected so much that her research is taught in seminary school, despite the fact that it quite clearly shows how Judaism (followed, of course, by Christianity and Islam) grew out of pantheistic religions and how the Abrahamic conception of God is a conflation of a few different pagan gods.

This is what she has to say:

Before the modern period, Jews, Christians and Muslims all relished highly allegorical interpretations of scripture. The word of God was infinite and could not be tied down to a single interpretation. Preoccupation with literal truth is a product of the scientific revolution, when reason achieved such spectacular results that mythology was no longer regarded as a valid path to knowledge.

 

[MikeG]

Such stories were never passed off as being 'for-real'. OTOH, all the stories in the Bible were initially taught to me (and I suspect very many others) in Sunday School and Church as being literally true. The back-tracking on this has only come out piecemeal over very many years...

You're rather changing your story again. TLTW&TW makes no claim anywhere that it is allegorical. Precisely the same as the babble. If, say, a teacher were to tell their class that it (TLTW&TW) was literally true, it wouldn't be the fault of the book if some kids grew up believing that to be the case, would it?

 

[Autolite]

Biblical literalism is a relatively new idea, dating more or less from the Enlightenment. Throughout the majority of the history of Christianity, everybody would have understood the stories to be at least partially allegorical in nature.

It would seem then the credibility of the bible (and Christianity) has been in a somewhat state of flux for the past couple of millennia. Perhaps I should wait and ask my question reference it's veracity again in 2000 years. Maybe by then they'll have it sorted out and I'll be able get a clear and definite answer without all the semantic bantering...

 

[The Big Dog]

It would seem then the credibility of the bible (and Christianity) has been in a somewhat state of flux for the past couple of millennia. Perhaps I should wait and ask my question reference it's veracity again in 2000 years. Maybe by then they'll have it sorted out and I'll be able get a clear and definite answer without all the semantic bantering...

well, perhaps your time would be better spent learning about the use of rhetorical devices such as allegory and metaphor.

 

[MikeG]

It's a rare old conversation where TBD and I find ourselves on the same side. That's a particularly neat trick, Autolite.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

It would seem then the credibility of the bible (and Christianity) has been in a somewhat state of flux for the past couple of millennia. Perhaps I should wait and ask my question reference it's veracity again in 2000 years. Maybe by then they'll have it sorted out and I'll be able get a clear and definite answer without all the semantic bantering...

Again, nothing you're posting reads like you're at all interested in learning, as you claim, or even of forming an honest opinion on this subject. They read like you want to feel superior to people, and betray an incredibly shallow and ill-informed understanding of what you're talking about.

You have the means and ability to educate yourself about this, should you so choose. You choose not to.

 

[The Big Dog]

Again, nothing you're posting reads like you're at all interested in learning, as you claim, or even of forming an honest opinion on this subject. They read like you want to feel superior to people, and betray an incredibly shallow and ill-informed understanding of what you're talking about.

You have the means and ability to educate yourself about this, should you so choose. You choose not to.

I thought the thread was missing he "humbling" part of the equation.

 

[Autolite]

well, perhaps your time would be better spent learning about the use of rhetorical devices such as allegory and metaphor.

Well all the replies, comments and links pretty much tells me all that I need to know. Or rather it just further underscores and confirms what I already knew.

The Christian Bible is a book of made-up fictitious stories, myths and fairy tales. It's all just pure unadulterated B.S.

And nobody in a position of religious authority has the balls to call it exactly what it is. No surprise at all really.

That's my "shallow and ill-informed" conclusion anyway...

 

[The Big Dog]

Well all the replies, comments and links pretty much tells me all that I need to know. Or rather it just further underscores and confirms what I already knew.

The Christian Bible is a book of made-up fictitious stories, myths and fairy tales. It's all just pure unadulterated B.S.

And nobody in a position of religious authority has the balls to call it exactly what it is. No surprise at all really...

Ah, you don't know what allegory and metaphor means. Rather you want to apply a strictly literalness to the Bible that is not accepted by the overwhelming majority of Christians, ignore links that directly explain it in extraordinary detail, and declare that you were right all along.

Edited by zooterkin: 

<SNIP>
Edited for rule 12.

 

[acbytesla]

Ah, you don't know what allegory and metaphor means. Rather you want to apply a strictly literalness to the Bible that is not accepted by the overwhelming majority of Christians, ignore links that directly explain it in extraordinary detail, and declare that you were right all along.

It's fine, we get it. "An Arrogant journey: Theism to Antitheism" might be a better title for the thread, no?

Not sure what the hell you're talking about TBD. Seems as if he understands it just fine.


al·le·go·ry
ˈaləˌɡôrē/Submit
noun
a story, poem, or picture that can be interpreted to reveal a hidden meaning, typically a moral or political one.
"Pilgrim's Progress is an allegory of the spiritual journey"
synonyms: parable, analogy, metaphor, symbol, emblem

met·a·phor
ˈmedəˌfôr,ˈmedəˌfər/Submit
noun
noun: metaphor; plural noun: metaphors
a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable.
"“I had fallen through a trapdoor of depression,” said Mark, who was fond of theatrical metaphors"
synonyms: figure of speech, image, trope, analogy, comparison, symbol, word painting/picture
"the profusion of metaphors in her everyday speech has gotten pretty tiresome"
a thing regarded as representative or symbolic of something else, especially something abstract.

 

[The Big Dog]

I read that link. Perhaps I missed the part where the Archbishop clearly states that the Bible is WRONG...

Well all the replies, comments and links pretty much tells me all that I need to know. Or rather it just further underscores and confirms what I already knew.

The Christian Bible is a book of made-up fictitious stories, myths and fairy tales. It's all just pure unadulterated B.S.

And nobody in a position of religious authority has the balls to call it exactly what it is. No surprise at all really.

That's my "shallow and ill-informed" conclusion anyway...

Not sure what the hell you're talking about TBD. Seems as if he understands it just fine.

I was talking about the above posts, thanks.