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A Humbling Journey: Theism to Atheism...

Squeegee Beckenheim said:
This reads more like you've already made your mind up than that you're trying to understand.
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Well I'm trying to figure out why and how Theists can buy into and be proponents of something that is such obvious B.S.

I'm beginning to think that I will not receive an answer that, to me, will make any sense...
 
Autolite said:
Maybe it's what I see happening in Canada politically that has gotten me dispirited. The current ruling Canadian Federal Liberal government has appointed a Sikh as Minister of National Defense and a Muslim as Minister of Immigration. The Federal Canadian NDP has just recently elected as their leader a Sikh also.

The Canadian Federal Liberal government has also recently passed motion M-103 to combat perceived anti-Islamophobia. I'm just not seeing here a huge swing toward secularism...
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I just don't see a big problem with this Autolite. If those Sikhs and Muslims are qualified for the jobs they should not be discriminated against. As long as they are not getting some dis-proportionate representation for some devious reason.

As far as the second paragraph is concerned, ( and I think you meant to say Islamophobia not ant-Islamophobia), I agree we should be free to criticise Islam as much as we like, but not target Muslims. We must remember that Muslims are the greatest victims of this vile religion.

We need a softly, softly approach to tackling Islam in our Western societies. There must be no public funding of Islamic schools, (and this means no funding for any other religious schools also), and kids should be taught critical thinking .... big time.
 
Thor 2 said:
I just don't see a big problem with this Autolite. If those Sikhs and Muslims are qualified for the jobs they should not be discriminated against.
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IMO, the Trudeau government is clearly practicing reverse discrimination. They seem to be giving these jobs to people precisely because they have a highly visible non-western cultural/religious profile.

The Canadian Minister of National Defense is a prime example. Harjit Sajjan is an ex-military member of the Canadian Armed Forces (Reserve). The number of Canadian Armed Forces members who are Sikh is comparatively infinitesimally small. Are we really suppose to assume that the absolute best person for the job just happened by coincidence to be a be a Sikh?

And competent he isn't. He has already made a serious blunder reference an unjustified claim about his previous military service. If this had happened under a Conservative federal government he would have been asked by the public to step down.


Thor 2 said:
and I think you meant to say Islamophobia not ant-Islamophobia
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Yes, my mistake...
 
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Thor 2 said:
We need a softly, softly approach to tackling Islam in our Western societies. There must be no public funding of Islamic schools, (and this means no funding for any other religious schools also), and kids should be taught critical thinking .... big time.
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And yet we're seeing the opposite happening in Canada. There was a recent dust-up in Ontario Canada where one of the local public school boards (Peel County) was fighting to preserve Islamic prayer service in their schools...

https://www.mississauga.com/news-st...-reaches-boiling-point-at-peel-board-meeting/
 
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Squeegee Beckenheim said:
I usually engage in debate with people I disagree with, or add to conversations where I think I have knowledge or experience which is relevant. I don't see the point in things which exist purely to give people orgasms by saying you're part of the same club. Not only is that pointless, it's the antithesis of critical thinking and scepticism - it is, instead, reinforcing already-held beliefs, making people more entrenched and less likely to examine their own views critically.
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I've been recently watching YouTube videos about the evolution of man and learning about the various species of humans and pre-humans that once existed.

Reference the discovery of fossils and the determination of their ages, the Christian might claim that fossils were deliberately created and planted by Satan in order to intentionally confuse us about our 'true' origins. I know this to be fact as it is what my bible-thumping Grandfather told us kids very many years ago.

Where do you go with the discussion when an argument like that is presented? I would be at a loss. It's an absolutely ludicrous claim but pointing that out will only get you bashed for being disrespectful of one's religious beliefs...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9Wx6-c8VSo
 
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Autolite said:
Well I'm trying to figure out why and how Theists can buy into and be proponents of something that is such obvious B.S.

I'm beginning to think that I will not receive an answer that, to me, will make any sense...
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Again, perhaps you'd be better served in this endeavour by talking to the people you're trying to psychoanalyse, rather than listening to people who agree with you parroting your own opinions back at you.
 
Autolite said:
Where do you go with the discussion when an argument like that is presented?
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It depends on what your aim in having the discussion is. If you want to understand how and why the other person thinks, then some probing questions seems like a good way to go.
 
Autolite said:
Maybe it's what I see happening in Canada politically that has gotten me dispirited. The current ruling Canadian Federal Liberal government has appointed a Sikh as Minister of National Defense and a Muslim as Minister of Immigration. The Federal Canadian NDP has just recently elected as their leader a Sikh also.

The Canadian Federal Liberal government has also recently passed motion M-103 to combat perceived anti-Islamophobia. I'm just not seeing here a huge swing toward secularism...
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What do you mean by secularism? If they're getting those jobs because they are Sikhs, then, yes, that's not secularism. But if they are getting them because they are good enough, and being a Sikh is irrelevant, that sounds like secularism to me.
 
Autolite said:
Well now you've got me curious. Is this afterlife you're wanting to explore an eternity? What could you imagine yourself doing for a few billion years that you would consider appealing?
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Keeping a modicrum of my memory and experience as I reincarnate into successive people in various alternate realities with different physical laws and histories, for example.
 
Thor 2 said:
I just don't see a big problem with this Autolite. If those Sikhs and Muslims are qualified for the jobs they should not be discriminated against. As long as they are not getting some dis-proportionate representation for some devious reason.
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Why do you think it'd be a problem if too many of them were in government?
 
zooterkin said:
What do you mean by secularism? If they're getting those jobs because they are Sikhs, then, yes, that's not secularism.
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The Canadian Prime Minister Trudeau is adamant about promoting 'diversity' in a Western society and he openly told the Canadian electorate (predominately Western) that their culture "does not exist".

What does this tell you???
 
Squeegee Beckenheim said:
It depends on what your aim in having the discussion is. If you want to understand how and why the other person thinks,then some probing questions seems like a good way to go.
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If a person tells you that "Satan planted fossils to deliberately deceive us", I'm just not expecting any sort of rational explanation for that claim.

If you were me, what sort of question would you ask that person???
 
Argumemnon said:
Keeping a modicrum of my memory and experience as I reincarnate into successive people in various alternate realities with different physical laws and histories, for example.
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So rather than one long continuous stretch of eternity, you'd prefer perpetual reincarnation while retaining memories of previous lives?

I think I would go for that too! I've sometimes wondered what life would be like if we could do a 'reset' starting out all over again yet retaining what we know and have already learned.

That kinda sounds like fun for maybe the first couple hundred of years anyway. After that it would likely feel like the movie "GroundHog Day"...
 
Autolite said:
So rather than one long continuous stretch of eternity, you'd prefer perpetual reincarnation while retaining memories of previous lives?
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That'd probably be my favourite version, yes.

I think I would go for that too! I've sometimes wondered what life would be like if we could do a 'reset' starting out all over again yet retaining what we know and have already learned.

That kinda sounds like fun for maybe the first couple hundred of years anyway. After that it would likely feel like the movie "GroundHog Day"...
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I don't know. There are infinite permutations. Imagine! You could be an alien Sherlock Holmes in a world with no gravity!
 
Argumemnon said:
That'd probably be my favourite version, yes.



I don't know. There are infinite permutations. Imagine! You could be an alien Sherlock Holmes in a world with no gravity!
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Or a bottle of Pepsi that controls the universe from within a refrigerator! That would be awesome! :D
 
Autolite said:
I've pretty much given up on any hope of every swaying the 'true believer'. For me, this now seems pointless. Consider that when debating Theists, you're engaging someone who is unable, or simply refuses, to acknowledge reality. IMO that's somewhat less than an ideal starting point for any sort of productive discourse.

In any case, I enjoy the type of videos I linked to because I want to try and figure out what it is that the 'believer' just isn't getting. It's like the believer has some sort of impermeability to rational thought, logic or reason.
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And no matter how many times you tell them they're stupid and ignorant for denying reality, they remain unconvinced. What sheeple, amirite?

I want to try and understand why there are so many people who believe in things that just aren't so...
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I told you why. Most people would rather feel right than be right. If the process of becoming right involves them not feeling like they're right, even momentarily, it doesn't happen. You're wasting your time trying to convince them they're wrong. They'll never admit it, even to themselves.
 
Autolite said:
So rather than one long continuous stretch of eternity, you'd prefer perpetual reincarnation while retaining memories of previous lives?

I think I would go for that too! I've sometimes wondered what life would be like if we could do a 'reset' starting out all over again yet retaining what we know and have already learned.

That kinda sounds like fun for maybe the first couple hundred of years anyway. After that it would likely feel like the movie "GroundHog Day"...
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You are getting quite the grilling here, and I am unsure why that is. I know plenty who have taken a long time to reach rational atheism.

It seems to me that you are describing your journey, however long it took and whatever route it took. No two accounts are the same.

Since you have apparently arrived by whatever route at the same place, I am at a loss why you are getting a hard time. The critique seems to be based on the route, not the destination.

Whatever, for one, I am glad you have taken that journey, I am glad that you have arrived, and I will happily discuss and debate whatever doubts may linger, because I have been that soldier long ago.
 
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