A Humbling Journey: Theism to Atheism...

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I agree that Maher was "preaching to the choir" but isn't that what we're really doing here on a skeptics' forum?

I usually engage in debate with people I disagree with, or add to conversations where I think I have knowledge or experience which is relevant. I don't see the point in things which exist purely to give people orgasms by saying you're part of the same club. Not only is that pointless, it's the antithesis of critical thinking and scepticism - it is, instead, reinforcing already-held beliefs, making people more entrenched and less likely to examine their own views critically.

I'm as certain as I am about anything that there is no God. I don't need my views parroted back at me, and can't understand what anybody would get out of such a thing.

IMO the best case scenario is that we might be able to convince someone who's sitting on the fence to just open their eyes and acknowledge reality. I think that was likely the goal of Religulous...

He shouldn't have filled the film full of crap arguments, then.

 

[Belz...]

Myself, I have no problem with my mortality. I have long ago realized something that was pointed out in the video from the OP. Spending an 'eternity' anywhere would be absolutely maddening.

Imagine every twitch, blink, fart or burp being repeated an infinite number of times. Everything that could ever possibly happen will happen over and over again repeatedly for an eternity.

I used to imagine 'Heaven' or paradise as spending an eternity with Jennifer Aniston. Even Brad Pitt couldn't deal with that after only a couple of years.

That's because you're limiting yourself to one concept of afterlife. I've got a few far more interesting ones that I wouldn't mind exploring for a few billion years.

 

[acbytesla]

Myself, I have no problem with my mortality. I have long ago realized something that was pointed out in the video from the OP. Spending an 'eternity' anywhere would be absolutely maddening.

Imagine every twitch, blink, fart or burp being repeated an infinite number of times. Everything that could ever possibly happen will happen over and over again repeatedly for an eternity.

I used to imagine 'Heaven' or paradise as spending an eternity with Jennifer Aniston. Even Brad Pitt couldn't deal with that after only a couple of years.

I think that people who find the notion of existing for an eternity appealing haven't really thought about what it really means..

IMV, Spending eternity in the Christian heaven would be akin to working in the Trump White House. Imagine spending forever 24 hours a day sucking up to an insecure a-hole with anger management issues.

 

[Autolite]

I usually engage in debate with people I disagree with, or add to conversations where I think I have knowledge or experience which is relevant. I don't see the point in things which exist purely to give people orgasms by saying you're part of the same club. Not only is that pointless, it's the antithesis of critical thinking and scepticism -

I've pretty much given up on any hope of every swaying the 'true believer'. For me, this now seems pointless. Consider that when debating Theists, you're engaging someone who is unable, or simply refuses, to acknowledge reality. IMO that's somewhat less than an ideal starting point for any sort of productive discourse.

In any case, I enjoy the type of videos I linked to because I want to try and figure out what it is that the 'believer' just isn't getting. It's like the believer has some sort of impermeability to rational thought, logic or reason. I want to try and understand why there are so many people who believe in things that just aren't so...

 

[Thor 2]

I agree. Religulous was overall very funny. It had moments that bored me. But overall, it shined a big light on the ridiculousness of religion and enough funny moments to make it worthwhile.

I thought Religulous was good too and can't understand those who say in such a self assured manner, that this or that would not convince a religious person of anything. If just a seed of doubt is planted it may be vital in the long run.

 

[Thor 2]

I've pretty much given up on any hope of every swaying the 'true believer'. For me, this now seems pointless. Consider that when debating Theists, you're engaging someone who is unable, or simply refuses, to acknowledge reality. IMO that's somewhat less than an ideal starting point for any sort of productive discourse.

In any case, I enjoy the type of videos I linked to because I want to try and figure out what it is that the 'believer' just isn't getting. It's like the believer has some sort of impermeability to ration, logic or reason. I want to try and understand why there are so many people who believe in things that just aren't so...

I wouldn't be so pessimistic about it. Something is happening in the West to overturn religious belief, the statistics show this clearly. I have heard Richard Dawkins claim of receiving fan mail from those who have rejected belief in God after reading him.

 

[Autolite]

That's because you're limiting yourself to one concept of afterlife. I've got a few far more interesting ones that I wouldn't mind exploring for a few billion years.

Well now you've got me curious. Is this afterlife you're wanting to explore an eternity? What could you imagine yourself doing for a few billion years that you would consider appealing?

On a lighter note reference the afterlife, you could check out this video. It's the 'Twilight Zone -A Nice Place to Visit'...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kycEDM-gW08

 

[acbytesla]

I thought Religulous was good too and can't understand those who say in such a self assured manner, that this or that would not convince a religious person of anything. If just a seed of doubt is planted it may be vital in the long run.

This stuff happens over time. I've been an atheist for decades, but a closet atheist. I'm convinced the number of non-believers is double the number of people that declare themselves atheists. People are afraid of not fitting in. It's like being gay. Over time, people just stopped caring whether their neighbor was gay. I saw a poll taken a few years ago in the US where people who said they were Christian was asked if they believed in the virgin birth or transubstantiation or the trinity or Noah's Ark and other parts of the Bible. Few did.

 

[Autolite]

I wouldn't be so pessimistic about it. Something is happening in the West to overturn religious belief, the statistics show this clearly. I have heard Richard Dawkins claim of receiving fan mail from those who have rejected belief in God after reading him.

I admit that I might have a somewhat pessimistic attitude but I'm just not seeing any light at the end of the tunnel. The accumulated knowledge of mankind has today advanced far past the point of needing a 'god' to explain anything.

We may not know everything, and we likely never will, but we now know enough not to be attributing anything to magic or "god did it".

I'm not seeing any improvement for Westerner either. Here in Canada, they elected a national leader who promised to promote and advance the Islamification of the country. And he's doing it too...

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I've pretty much given up on any hope of every swaying the 'true believer'. For me, this now seems pointless. Consider that when debating Theists, you're engaging someone who is unable, or simply refuses, to acknowledge reality. IMO that's somewhat less than an ideal starting point for any sort of productive discourse.

Firstly, it's always wise to assume that there are people reading even if they're not replying. If your goal is to convert people, it may well be those who are just reading who are the more "in between" people that you claim Religuous was probably aimed it.

Secondly, I don't think that engaging people who you disagree with need be about trying to prove to them - or anybody - that you're right. A far more useful thing is to use it as a way to interrogate and test your own opinions.

In any case, I enjoy the type of videos I linked to because I want to try and figure out what it is that the 'believer' just isn't getting. It's like the believer has some sort of impermeability to rational thought, logic or reason. I want to try and understand why there are so many people who believe in things that just aren't so...

And you think the best way to accomplish this is to watch circle-jerks from people you agree with, rather than speaking to the believers you claim you want to "figure out"?

 

[BStrong]

I watched it thinking that someone else might forward the link on to a Theist that they know. After watching it, I have a hard time understanding why we still have Theism. I just can't seem to wrap my head around it...

We're herd animals.

Religion is very comforting to some folks, an opportunity to shear the sheep to others, and an angle towards achieving fame and/or fortune to people not talented enough to go into legit acting or contemporary music.

For some it's a high horse to ride while passing judgement on others.

For some it provides rationalization for to getting out their killing tools.

 

[acbytesla]

I admit that I might have a somewhat pessimistic attitude but I'm just not seeing any light at the end of the tunnel. The accumulated knowledge of mankind has today advanced far past the point of needing a 'god' to explain anything.

We may not know everything, and we likely never will, but we now know enough not to be attributing anything to magic or "god did it".

I'm not seeing any improvement for Westerner either. Here in Canada, they elected a national leader who promised to promote and advance the Islamification of the country. And he's doing it too...

I feel the opposite is true. I think more and more people are either atheist or just nonreligious than I can ever remember. It takes generations.

I am afraid that the West does need to slow immigration from Islamic nations.

 

[Thor 2]

I feel the opposite is true. I think more and more people are either atheist or just nonreligious than I can ever remember. It takes generations.

I am afraid that the West does need to slow immigration from Islamic nations.

My observation also. In Australia today the non religious are the largest single group. I don't have any religious friends - only family.

 

[acbytesla]

My observation also. In Australia today the non religious are the largest single group. I don't have any religious friends - only family.

I went to Sweden 2 years ago. It seemed as if nobody believes in God in the Nordic countries. Except the immigrants.

 

[Autolite]

And you think the best way to accomplish this is to watch circle-jerks from people you agree with, rather than speaking to the believers you claim you want to "figure out"?

Well I look at the arguments and rationality for Atheism and I want to see if there's something about them that doesn't make any sense. I want to try and figure out what it is about them that the Theist would reject and try to understand why. So far I've been drawing a blank.

What I've concluded is that Atheism vs Theism type arguments are an 'apples-n-oranges' type of discussion. It's like playing a game of chess against an opponent who's playing 'Dungeons-n-Dragons'. It's rationality vs magical thinking. Logic or reason will never defeat a 'cause god is magic type argument.

I once had a Theist tell me that religion "doesn't need to make any sense". I'd say that that pretty much ends the discussion. What chance does the Atheist have when our arguments are limited by logic, rationality, reason and reality? For the Atheist it will always be a no-win situation because the Theist argument isn't handicapped or restricted by such constraints.

The Theist will also play both sides of the fence. They will do back flips trying to rationalize an issue and when that is impossible they will claim that "god is magic, mysterious or beyond human comprehension". That's their default joker. It's their universal wild card. What point is there in having a discussion with someone who's playing by those types of rules???

 

[Thor 2]

I went to Sweden 2 years ago. It seemed as if nobody believes in God in the Nordic countries. Except the immigrants.

True enough.

I was born in Sweden and have many relatives there I keep in touch with. The folk there just aren't interested in religion but are reluctant to call themselves atheist. Atheism implies a sense of militancy it seems, a militancy they don't have as they are just not interested.

My suspicion is the reason for the lack of interest, is because of the lack of influence religion has now. For them the battle has been won.

 

[Autolite]

I went to Sweden 2 years ago. It seemed as if nobody believes in God in the Nordic countries. Except the immigrants.

Using Sweden as an indication of where Western society is heading I'm afraid does not inspire much hope that things will eventually improve...

 

[Thor 2]

Using Sweden as an indication of where Western society is heading I'm afraid does not inspire much hope that things will eventually improve...

Don't be so glum Autolite:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Importance_of_religion_by_country

As you can see even in your own country religiosity is falling. We are beating you in Australia though.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Well I look at the arguments and rationality for Atheism and I want to see if there's something about them that doesn't make any sense. I want to try and figure out what it is about them that the Theist would reject and try to understand why. So far I've been drawing a blank.

What I've concluded is that Atheism vs Theism type arguments are an 'apples-n-oranges' type of discussion. It's like playing a game of chess against an opponent who's playing 'Dungeons-n-Dragons'. It's rationality vs magical thinking. Logic or reason will never defeat a 'cause god is magic type argument.

I once had a Theist tell me that religion "doesn't need to make any sense". I'd say that that pretty much ends the discussion. What chance does the Atheist have when our arguments are limited by logic, rationality, reason and reality? For the Atheist it will always be a no-win situation because the Theist argument isn't handicapped or restricted by such constraints.

The Theist will also play both sides of the fence. They will do back flips trying to rationalize an issue and when that is impossible they will claim that "god is magic, mysterious or beyond human comprehension". That's their default joker. It's their universal wild card. What point is there in having a discussion with someone who's playing by those types of rules???

This reads more like you've already made your mind up than that you're trying to understand.

 

[Autolite]

Don't be so glum Autolite:

As you can see even in your own country religiosity is falling. We are beating you in Australia though.

Maybe it's what I see happening in Canada politically that has gotten me dispirited. The current ruling Canadian Federal Liberal government has appointed a Sikh as Minister of National Defense and a Muslim as Minister of Immigration. The Federal Canadian NDP has just recently elected as their leader a Sikh also.

The Canadian Federal Liberal government has also recently passed motion M-103 to combat perceived anti-Islamophobia. I'm just not seeing here a huge swing toward secularism...